And in what way do our credentials make either of us a better judge of what makes a good RPG?
You've missed the point, twice. It's not about credentials, it's an example. I'm writing about what I know. At no point did I say, "I'm a teacher, therefore listen to me," and I challenge you to find where I did.
To be blunt, it does not, unless one of us has a degree in the design of roleplaying games. I taught military history, which is at least tangentially connected. But it does not make my opinion any better, or any worse, than any other person who runs, or plays games. We are both well behind in authority to folks who write, sell, and market games.
Agreed. I never said I was.
Thus the logical fallacy of The Appeal to Authority. Neither of us have any, but then I am not claiming any. I am merely saying that neither of us has any legitimate authority to claim.
Neither of us has any claim to authority better than 'I like this game, that game sucks'. Or, for that matter, that 'there is a market for each game, let folks play what they like'. So who has what degrees, and who teaches what, and for what body of students they do their teaching and preaching matters not one whit.
There was no logical benefit to your mentioning that you were an educator, and the only purpose to my mentioning the fact that I have also taught was to point out that in neither case does this fact have any bearing.
It was to set the reader up for the example I was using, as I've already stated at length, twice. If I wanted to actually try to get on a high horse about design, I would have listed my numerous design credits, all for 3.x. Which I do in a post below to refute some other guy who has made assumptions about me. If I wanted to appeal to authority, I probably would have raised that point, don't you think?
Now you and I are both are adding Argument Through Verbosity - another logical fallacy, with perhaps a soupcon of Ad Hominem Attack.
So, if I write a detailed response in paragraph form, I'm committing a fallacy? That's not what we are teaching in the classroom, btw. Detailed responses are what we are hoping for. You were so incredibly off base with your attack of me personally in a post that contained no reference to the actual topic of the thread I felt the need to explain at length. I'm always verbose, I even write articles for the
University of Pheonix. Oops, I guess I just fallacied again (like that's even a verb.) That's not an appeal to authority folks, just that I find it easy to vomit out words in quantity. With that clarifying statement said, in no way does verbosity give my opinion any more weight than yours.
You have shown me no proof that your opinion is in any way, shape, or form either better or more informed than mine own. In turn, I do not claim that mine is any better, nor more informed, than yours, much as I may like to think that it is so.
Again, agreed. If you read my posts in total you may begin to understand this as well.
Last time I checked, English was a primary subject, as is history. Want to try for another tack? I don't think that either of us has tried for an Undistributed Middle yet.
You see, that "English is a separate subject" idea has got to go. I had a middle school teacher argue that she had sole province over teaching English and that she was the only qualified person to teach it when I suggested a summer school plan that included English curriculum for all classes. She teaches English for all students in her grade level, and her scores are not terrific. That's the problem in education right there, as long as an admin allows that idea to continue, we are unlikely to raise those scores much. When kids are reading instructions for the games they play in gym, writing reports on composers in music class, and writing essays in history using the exact same rubric they do in English we will be getting somewhere.
That's a problem today too. 4e is a change in how RPGs run, one that makes the game more open to new players which we absolutely need to continue our hobby. Just like teachers do (I guess I fallacied again) so many have closed ranks and desperately tried to stick to what they know. On that note, I'd like a comparison of red box sales to the PF beginner's box.
The market will be the actual judge for these games - I think that there is enough room for both games, but at the moment, at the moment, 4e is stagnating a bit. This can change, and likely will.
Agreed. Although even if 4e goes teats up, I believe it has already blazed the trail of RPGs in the future, but that's another post.
, for its part, is proving more robust than expected, and is growing faster than 4e, at the moment. Again, subject to change as the market reacts, and also subject to local conditions.
There is room for both games to grow, but WotC might need a kick in the trousers.
Agreed. WotC has actually made very few products that appeal to me lately. I fully expected to be purchasing my next PHB, DMG, and MM by this point. Instead, there are lots of essentials products of which I've only picked up the Rules Compendium. I hope to get a second hand copy of the Monster Vault, because I don't really want the pogs (you want to hear me bash 4e, get me started on the pogs!). I don't want or need a red box. WotC, give me something to buy, I don't even buy tiles anymore because I make my own terrain now (shout out to Vince of
showcaseterrain.com, that dungeon set rocks hardcore). I stopped buying the minis when the price went up, it's cheaper and more fun to buy metal and paint them. Lots of books have been aimed at players, which I appreciate. However, DMs spend considerably more than players do (5x or something, according to research I heard at a WotC seminar back in 2000) I am thankful for the redistribution of wealth, but maybe some more DM products are called for. I did pick up both board games, (so I could paint the minis mostly) and I don't know if those count as D&D sales. It's entirely possible that I, an "evangelical" 4e player, have had little opportunity to buy 4e products lately.
The Auld Grump, I see by your outfit that you are a cowboy.
You see by my outfit that I'm a cowboy too....
We see by our outfits that we are both cowboys,
If you buy an outfit you can be a cowboy too.... (There, now I have added an Undistributed Middle!)
I love the Smother's Brothers too. Again, we agree.
Well, unless I miss my mark you're halfway through composing your rebuttal in your head, which will be a fine opportunity for you to explore the Last Word Fallacy. Go ahead, I'm done explaining the same thing three times over.
As for everyone else, let the attacks continue.
