Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

Aren't ddi subsciptions only a little over over 50k?

Dannager said:

Nothing. As I pointed out earlier, I understand the position, even if I don't feel the same need.

I might note, however, that the defensive tone might lead one to believe that you feel as though your desire to control your own game of D&D is under assault. And, from a certain perspective, you'd be right. You're swimming against the current, I'm afraid.

I believe that, increasingly and at a society-wide level, more and more people are accepting that they do not need to be, because they're beginning to appreciate the upsides of giving up a small part of that control.

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{Fwiw, if the reference to the wife and the CIA wasn't a tip off, take note: it was a little tongue-in-cheek, not quite as defensive as it must have sounded! }

Yes, of course you're (largely) right. I also fully acknowledge that no one will steal my books, take away my dice or kill my puppy. And I understand that I will (hopefully) be able to find games that I want to play via the internet, using what ever tools I deem appropriate, either in person or online.

I don't quite buy, however, that computer-only RPGing will ever be more than a plurality in the hobby. I take heart that in modern society there are trends away from pure convenience at the price of flexibility (and, franklyl, "humanness"). I suspect that even among young folks today, a great many will actually shun computer-only entertainment, just to "get away from it all" now and then. Hopefully, an enterprising RPG company will take advantage of that human need, and exploit it profitably.

More importanly, with luck, I'll convert a handful computer-only rpg-ers to a pen'n'paper cabal of my own!
** maniacal laugh **

Bedrockgames said:

Aren't ddi subsciptions only a little over over 50k?

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The number of people with DDI subscriptions who are also on the D&D community forums is over 56,000 last time I checked.

More importantly, though, what does "only" mean? Are you saying that hundreds of thousands of dollars of monthly revenue is underwhelming? The consensus, as far as I've seen, is that 50,000+ subscribers to a digital tabletop gaming service is pretty phenomenal, and is certainly unprecedented in the industry.

Theo R Cwithin said:

{Fwiw, if the reference to the wife and the CIA wasn't a tip off, take note: it was a little tongue-in-cheek, not quite as defensive as it must have sounded! }

Yes, of course you're (largely) right. I also fully acknowledge that no one will steal my books, take away my dice or kill my puppy. I also fully acknowledge that I will hopefully be able to find games that I want to play via the internet, using what ever tools I deem appropriate, either in person or online.

I don't quite buy, however, that computer-only RPGing will ever be more than a plurality in the hobby. I take heart that in modern society there are trends away from pure convenience at the price of flexibility (and, franklyl, "humanness"). I suspect that even among young folks today, a great many will actually shun computer-only entertainment, just to "get away from it all" now and then. Hopefully, an enterprising RPG company will take advantage of that human need, and exploit it profitably.

More importanly, with luck, I'll convert a few computer-only rpg-ers to a pen'n'paper cabal of my own! *maniacal laugh*

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I think you may be overstating the case for the desire to disconnect, and for the desire to search out types of entertainment that don't involve any computers.

Dannager said:

More importantly, though, what does "only" mean? Are you saying that hundreds of thousands of dollars of monthly revenue is underwhelming? The consensus, as far as I've seen, is that 50,000+ subscribers to a digital tabletop gaming service is pretty phenomenal, and is certainly unprecedented in the industry.

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And it will takes years to recoup the investment that went into it (if they ever do), not counting continuing costs and upkeep. By that measure, it might not be as rip roaring a success as some might see it to the business side of WotC/Hasbro.

Dannager said:

Nothing. As I pointed out earlier, I understand the position, even if I don't feel the same need.

I might note, however, that the defensive tone might lead one to believe that you feel as though your desire to control your own game of D&D is under assault. And, from a certain perspective, you'd be right. You're swimming against the current, I'm afraid.

I believe that, increasingly and at a society-wide level, more and more people are accepting that they do not need to be, because they're beginning to appreciate the upsides of giving up a small part of that control.

Click to expand...

And I believe that people are willing to give up small parts of that control as well. But giving up your entire game to a company is not "small", that's the whole kit and kaboodle. And I think that's what has people on edge.

Case in point, I know of one of two people who are either ripping thier entire DVD collections to NAS drives and then are willing to depend on NetFlix Streaming for the stuff that they don't have or havent seen yet. On one hand for people who are casual consumers of media that's fine. They dont really place the same value on film and good TV shows that I do. I've had people try to convince me that I should rip my media to a HD and sell my physical DVD's and Blu-Rays. I can tell you that short of truly extenuating circumstances the selling part will never happen. Those DVD's are my master copies.

If I get the urge to watch Carol Reed's THE THIRD MAN, I dont want to have to rely on the fact that MAYBE Netflix streaming might have it..Oh no wait, their deal with Criterion expires in a month. If I want to watch any Criterion movies I'll have to subscribe to Hulu Plus now...oh well. However, because I've retained control of my own personal physical copy of the DVD I can pop it in whenever I want to. Deals with studios be damned.

The same thing with game companies. If heavens forbid Paizo decides that theyre going to have their rules for Pathfinder2.0 entirely on line behind a paywall and I have to subscribe to gain access to the rules, character creation software and a virtual table. That's pretty much the day they lose me as a customer. If they provide a hard copy of the rules that I can use to play the game when and where I want it and the tools are extra that's acceptable. Then I have the option to use their tools without being forced to if I wanted to play the game. But the first thing? That's entirely TOO much control to give up and I honestly dont see that as a viable model for such a niche hobby.

Shemeska said:

And it will takes years to recoup the investment that went into it (if they ever do), not counting continuing costs and upkeep. By that measure, it might not be as rip roaring a success as some might see it to the business side of WotC/Hasbro.

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That's only if Hasbro didn't write off the initial (failed) investments in Gleemax or the outside software developer they hired. I'm willing to bet that they did. I bet the rest of it is well on its way to being recouped, if it hasn't gotten there already.

Either way, it's hard to argue that the service has not been tremendously popular.

ShinHakkaider said:

And I believe that people are willing to give up small parts of that control as well. But giving up your entire game to a company is not "small", that's the whole kit and kaboodle. And I think that's what has people on edge.

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The fact that you see this as giving up your entire game to the company speaks quite a lot.

You are not giving up anywhere near full control of your game to the company. You are relying on their service to run your game, but that doesn't mean that you're giving them your whole game, or control of it.

Case in point, I know of one of two people who are either ripping thier entire DVD collections to NAS drives and then are willing to depend on NetFlix Streaming for the stuff that they don't have or havent seen yet. On one hand for people who are casual consumers of media that's fine. They dont really place the same value on film and good TV shows that I do. I've had people try to convince me that I should rip my media to a HD and sell my physical DVD's and Blu-Rays. I can tell you that short of truly extenuating circumstances the selling part will never happen. Those DVD's are my master copies.

If I get the urge to watch Carol Reed's THE THIRD MAN, I dont want to have to rely on the fact that MAYBE Netflix streaming might have it..Oh no wait, their deal with Criterion expires in a month. If I want to watch any Criterion movies I'll have to subscribe to Hulu Plus now...oh well. However, because I've retained control of my own personal physical copy of the DVD I can pop it in whenever I want to. Deals with studios be damned.

Click to expand...

You still find that the convenience doesn't outweigh the trade-off. That's fine. There will eventually be a service exactly like what you're looking for.

The same thing with game companies. If heavens forbid Paizo decides that theyre going to have their rules for Pathfinder2.0 entirely on line behind a paywall and I have to subscribe to gain access to the rules, character creation software and a virtual table. That's pretty much the day they lose me as a customer. If they provide a hard copy of the rules that I can use to play the game when and where I want it and the tools are extra that's acceptable. Then I have the option to use their tools without being forced to if I wanted to play the game. But the first thing? That's entirely TOO much control to give up and I honestly dont see that as a viable model for such a niche hobby.

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We'll see.

IronWolf said:

I think it might be "the". Here is the announcement from Hyrum:

paizo.com - Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Compatible Products from Other Publishers / Archives / Hero Lab Partners with Pathfinder RPG!

They did release their iPad apps recently though....

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That press release is interesting, though, in that it doesn't say "exclusive", it says "only". Technically, they can be the only one at the moment.

As for the iPad apps, it was certainly a long wait for the small functionality of those two apps. (Of course, bigger and better apps are rumored, so the jury is still out.)

Theo R Cwithin said:

/snip

I don't quite buy, however, that computer-only RPGing will ever be more than a plurality in the hobby. I take heart that in modern society there are trends away from pure convenience at the price of flexibility (and, franklyl, "humanness"). I suspect that even among young folks today, a great many will actually shun computer-only entertainment, just to "get away from it all" now and then. Hopefully, an enterprising RPG company will take advantage of that human need, and exploit it profitably.

More importanly, with luck, I'll convert a handful computer-only rpg-ers to a pen'n'paper cabal of my own!
** maniacal laugh **

Click to expand...

See, I don't understand this.

Right now, because the DDI is browser based, you could have a group sitting around using their smart phones instead of pens and dice and the game would play EXACTLY the same as it does now. Well, other than people suffering from chronic back pain from lugging around 50 pounds of books every time you want to game.

Add in a VTT, and now you have paperless gaming.

But, the thing is, it's still exactly the same as paperfull gaming, just with less dead trees. All of these electronic tools are just that - tools. They don't actually do anything by themselves. You have a Character database instead of a character sheet, a VTT instead of a Chessex Battlemap (or whatever floats your boat) and so on.

But, you still have six people sitting around pretending to be an elf. Nothing else actually changes.