Pathfinder 1E Paizo Copyright Issues at Obsidian Portal?

Terramotus

First Post
Read the complaint by the DM. Read the Paizo response.

So, I find it super awesome that a company that wouldn't exist were it not for the open nature of another company's products is starting to get concerned about copyright. And by awesome, I mean ridiculous.

Do they have the legal right to use the wotc material and yet be concerned about their own copyrights? Absolutely. Is it surprising? No. Is it intellectually consistent? Not in my opinion. Either you stand for openness or you don't. It's easy to be open when it doesn't cost much (or even helps you). It's harder when it starts to pinch.
 

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Read the complaint by the DM. Read the Paizo response.

So, I find it super awesome that a company that wouldn't exist were it not for the open nature of another company's products is starting to get concerned about copyright. And by awesome, I mean ridiculous.

Do they have the legal right to use the wotc material and yet be concerned about their own copyrights? Absolutely. Is it surprising? No. Is it intellectually consistent? Not in my opinion. Either you stand for openness or you don't. It's easy to be open when it doesn't cost much (or even helps you). It's harder when it starts to pinch.

Can it be intellecutally consistent to shape x and y into z and then protect the copyright of z? I think so.

Perhaps you differ?
 

rangerjohn

Explorer
It is not one size fits all in this case. Although it rarely is. Book stores no longer sell gaming books in my area. As for college I will be 46 next month, not exactly welcome on campus in this day of predators.
 

Erik Mona

Adventurer
Read the complaint by the DM. Read the Paizo response.

So, I find it super awesome that a company that wouldn't exist were it not for the open nature of another company's products is starting to get concerned about copyright. And by awesome, I mean ridiculous.

We have always been concerned about copyright.

We have a very generous community use policy. This campaign was operating outside this policy, so we asked them to take the copyrighted material down or put it behind a firewall. This is not the first time we have made such a request, and it is not the last time we will do so.

It's unfortunate that you find this ridiculous, but it is great that you find it awesome.

--Erik Mona
Publisher
Paizo Publishing
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
It is not one size fits all in this case. Although it rarely is. Book stores no longer sell gaming books in my area. As for college I will be 46 next month, not exactly welcome on campus in this day of predators.

Dude, I'm 43, making 44.

While I can't make book stores magically resume selling gaming books, the fact is that colleges still attract older students, so don't toss out that option just yet. I got my MBA in 05, and I wasn't the oldest guy in the program. I was working on another degree as recently as last year before the school ended the program I was enrolled in...and I wasn't even in the same decade as some of my elder fellow students.

Of course, it helps if you're actually enrolled in a course. Downside, expensive- less so if its at a community college or its a continuing education/non matriculating course- upside, you learn something (guitar? a language? life drawing?) and you may just find a game.
 


MrGrenadine

Explorer
Read the complaint by the DM. Read the Paizo response.

So, I find it super awesome that a company that wouldn't exist were it not for the open nature of another company's products is starting to get concerned about copyright. And by awesome, I mean ridiculous.

Do they have the legal right to use the wotc material and yet be concerned about their own copyrights? Absolutely. Is it surprising? No. Is it intellectually consistent? Not in my opinion. Either you stand for openness or you don't. It's easy to be open when it doesn't cost much (or even helps you). It's harder when it starts to pinch.

Actually, unless I'm mistaken, the OGL actually limits the usage of some terms (Mind Flayers, for instance), so by using OGL material, Paizo was actually respecting copyright.

Also, I'm sure the DM on Obsidian Portal meant no harm, but his intent is largely irrelevant. He was posting copyrighted material in a public and advertised space, (his campaign was being featured by OP), and anyone else with internet access could download the images and proliferate them, copy them, or whatever.

So why get so worked up over the folks at Paizo asking that the campaign be set to private? Seems reasonable to me.
 

Terramotus

First Post
Actually, unless I'm mistaken, the OGL actually limits the usage of some terms (Mind Flayers, for instance), so by using OGL material, Paizo was actually respecting copyright.

Also, I'm sure the DM on Obsidian Portal meant no harm, but his intent is largely irrelevant. He was posting copyrighted material in a public and advertised space, (his campaign was being featured by OP), and anyone else with internet access could download the images and proliferate them, copy them, or whatever.

So why get so worked up over the folks at Paizo asking that the campaign be set to private? Seems reasonable to me.

A few reasons.

1) The infringement, on a quick glance, seems pretty inconsequential. At least as described. I can't see it anymore because it's been locked away.

2) This may not be entirely Paizo's fault, but they've been praised as paragons of open gaming by many. If you support open gaming / open source initiatives, it goes with that same belief system that you oppose the indiscriminate use of copyright against your customer base. Use it against competitors stealing your materials, maybe even use it against large scale piracy, but don't harass your customers.

Now, Paizo doesn't HAVE to hold that kind of belief system. They could be, for example, Cisco just slapping Linux on their routers because it's cheap and it works - a simple business decision. That's fine, but I'm not going to praise Cisco for doing so. By the same token, it's fine for Paizo to take what's available in the form of the OGL and use it for their own ends while doing what's necessary to comply by the license while using existing IP laws to continue to leverage their position. That's fine, but they shouldn't be praised for it.

So perhaps I should retract my statement before. I was under the impression that Paizo was an advocate of the philosophy of open gaming. If they intend to be, I think this action is inconsistent with that philosophy. If that wasn't the intent, then I apologize - I assumed.

But if they're just using what's available to make what money they can while working at a hobby they enjoy, and want to operate the way most other companies in the world operate - great. But you don't get any extra "street cred" for the use of the OGL.

We have always been concerned about copyright.

We have a very generous community use policy. This campaign was operating outside this policy, so we asked them to take the copyrighted material down or put it behind a firewall. This is not the first time we have made such a request, and it is not the last time we will do so.
I understand your position, and I came off too strong in my original post and didn't elaborate enough. That said, I don't think you've done yourself any favors with this policy, and perhaps it needs to changing. In today's market, good will from your customer base is quite possibly the most valuable asset you've got. Sure. you're strictly in the right in this case, and I'm sure your board or your shareholders or whatever Paizo's got will praise this decision. But IMO that doesn't really help. You can be special, or you can be like every other company out there. Nobody's going to lose their job over being like anyone else, but your company also won't stand out.

The real question is: Was there honest-to-god piracy here? If not, I think the call of a company that favors the "open" philosophy would have been to let it alone.
 
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