Create Undead Help: will a created ghoul attack an evil lich that created it???

Belzbet · Jul 26, 2011

I know that if a PC is a good/neutral aligned non-undead cleric or something similar will have to find some other way for a created undead (with the create undead or greater create undead spell) to obey them (since in the spell description it says that created undead are not under your control). However, what if an evil lich created a ghoul (or a mohrg or something), would you say that the ghoul would attack the lich (if the lich took NO measures to command it with a spell or the rebuke ability)?? I know that the ghoul would not obey the liches command but would it attack the lich? Or would it simply go on its way (and if it is a ghoul that would be to look for flesh)? I am inclined to say that it wouldnt attack another undead creature but I was just wondering what you guys thought... Also what if a good/neutral aligned undead wizard/cleric (I know rare indeed) created a ghoul would you say that the ghoul would attack it? I am inclined to say no since a ghoul doesnt have any detect alignment ability but again I want to see what you guys think...

Vegepygmy · Jul 26, 2011

Well, let's see...

Ghoul
Str 13, Dex 15, Con -, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12

I'd say it knows better than to attack a lich that created it.

Seriously, though...a ghoul has no reason to attack a lich, and many reasons not to. I think it would indeed obey the lich's commands, not because it is compelled to, but because it recognizes the lich as a much more powerful entity.

frankthedm · Jul 26, 2011

Belzbet said:
However, what if an evil lich created a ghoul (or a mohrg or something), would you say that the ghoul would attack the lich (if the lich took NO measures to command it with a spell or the rebuke ability)?

Depends, can fear immune being notice a fear aura in that DM's campaign? If not, the ghoul just sees ambulatory corpse jerky. If so, it will probably recognize the lich as Dangerous, with that "dreadful aura of death and evil".

Belzbet · Jul 26, 2011

Vegepygmy said:
Well, let's see...

Ghoul
Str 13, Dex 15, Con -, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12

I'd say it knows better than to attack a lich that created it.

Seriously, though...a ghoul has no reason to attack a lich, and many reasons not to. I think it would indeed obey the lich's commands, not because it is compelled to, but because it recognizes the lich as a much more powerful entity.

Yeah good point about the Int. thing... what do you think about a mindless undead created by create undead (by something other than a lich maybe a necropolitan)?

Empirate · Jul 26, 2011

Mindless undead don't necessarily attack all in sight. In fact, if given no orders by a competent "programmer" (i.e. by somebody with the ability to control mindless undead through Rebuking, spells etc.), I always imagined mindless undead to just remain the way they are indefinitely. I'd play them as automatons animated by a power source (negative energy) and controlled by a simple "BIOS" (programmed by the spell/ability that created them). The "BIOS" allows them to understand and follow orders given by a competent "programmer". That's all. They have no desires, not even the desire to attack the living, feed, preserve their own existence or what-have-you.

So if a Necropolitan spellcaster casts Animate Dead on a corpse, all that nets him is a slightly less dead corpse, with the potential to shuffle around and obey simple orders - if the spellcaster in question also knows how to "program" his creation.

However, this is my personal interpretation, there's no rules text to cover this question. You're free to interpret it "mindless Undead = raging killing machine unless otherwise ordered".

Also, why would an intelligent undead creature not attack another undead creature? There's no Undead Covenant or anything like that. They're just a creature type. Animals eat other animals, humanoids kill, rape, exploit and on occasion diss other humanoids, evil outsiders kill evil outsiders in the Blood War... why wouldn't an undead creature kill another undead creature, if only to eat it? Ghouls do eat the flesh of the dead, after all... not necessarily the flesh of a Lich powerful enough to create them, though!

RUMBLETiGER · Jul 26, 2011

Empirate said:
Also, why would an intelligent undead creature not attack another undead creature? There's no Undead Covenant or anything like that. They're just a creature type. Animals eat other animals, humanoids kill, rape, exploit and on occasion diss other humanoids, evil outsiders kill evil outsiders in the Blood War... why wouldn't an undead creature kill another undead creature, if only to eat it? Ghouls do eat the flesh of the dead, after all... not necessarily the flesh of a Lich powerful enough to create them, though!

Assuming the undead creature in question has intelligence, the ability to reason some way to determine an opponents strength relative to self, has any motivation to make an attack (Hunger, Hate, Urge to Kill), and self-preservation, He'd not outright attack.

If possessing Intelligence, self-preservation and motivation to attack, but unable to determine an opponents strength, than I'd expect such a creature to be wary, possibly test the opponent in a roundabout way, or look for an easier seeming target.

If possessing Intelligence but no self preservation and a motivation to attack, than would likely attack in a manner believed to be most successful.

If possessing self-preservation but no intelligence and a motivation to attack, than likely to attack first, and after the first good hit, pull back and retreat.

If lacking in intelligence and self-preservation and a motivation to attack, it'd simply attack until dead, or the opponent was dead.

If lacking motivation to attack and is intelligent with self-preservation, It would most likely serve, as long as orders didn't put it within reasonable harm.

If lacking in motivation to attack and is unintelligent but has self preservation, it would serve until it was wounded, than flee.

If lacking in motivation to attack, is intelligent and has no self-preservation, it's likely to serve fanatically.

If lacking in any motivation to attack and lacking intelligence, such as in @Empirate's assessment, it would remain inert.