What stops WotC from also selling 3.5?

tomBitonti · Sep 26, 2011

Hi,

This is a re-frame of "What's stopping WOTC from going back to 3.5?"

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...-stopping-wizards-coast-going-back-3-5-a.html

From what I can tell, D&D as a game (so not counting books, comics, cartoons, movies), has several variations:

1) Variation by edition.
2) Variation by campaign world.
3) Variation by product form.

That is to say:

1) Basic, 1st, 2nd, 3rd (including 3.5), 4th
2) Spelljammer, Hollow Earth, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Gamma World, Birthright, Points of Light, probably more that I've missed.
3) Printed books, PDFs, online database access, board game (ala Ravenloft, Wrath of Ashardalon), miniatures game, card based accessories, online play.

Within that space, the current focus is 4th edition and Points of Light or Gamma World, with book, online database, and board games as the product focus. (I don't know the current status of PDFs, and the card based accessories being tried, but not succeeding, to my knowledge.)

I have these questions then:

1) Presuming a relatively small cost to reprint the prior books, these could be put back in print. There seems to be a market for them, but, is there really that much, or rather, is there more than the secondary markets can handle?

2) Is there any hope of overcoming the additional barriers of (a) corporate dislike of the OGL (b) intrabrand competition or (c) brand dilution.

3) Is there any hope now of in-company based online play? This is asked in light of the many capable software game companies that seem capable of producing such a game. *Something* seems inevitable.

4) Is there any chance of the board games (e.g., Wrath of Ashardolon) surpassing the more traditional role playing games? That is asked because the board game market seems a lot bigger than the role playing market.

Thx!

Tom

Bedrockgames · Sep 26, 2011

I think they wanted to avoid the old TSR model of multiple editions at a time, believing if they continued to produce 3.5 it would just eat into their 4E sales. But I don't know. If they thought it was in their financial interest to put out 3.5 or 3.0 again I figure they would do it, so they must have a good reason.

delericho · Sep 26, 2011

As I said on the other thread, this would probably mean that instead of having one successful product (4e), WotC would instead have two failed ones (3e and 4e) - although the total number of sales would likely go up, each individual product would sell fewer units, and I suspect the D&D books are now selling just barely well enough to be worth bothering with.

tomBitonti said:
1) Presuming a relatively small cost to reprint the prior books, these could be put back in print. There seems to be a market for them, but, is there really that much, or rather, is there more than the secondary markets can handle?

I suspect the cost is higher than you think. Also, with the exception of the core rules, all of 3e appears to be available cheaply and easily on eBay. So, yeah, I think the secondary market can handle it.

(I do wish they'd reprint the 3.5e PHB, but I don't see it happening.)

2) Is there any hope of overcoming the additional barriers of (a) corporate dislike of the OGL (b) intrabrand competition or (c) brand dilution.

3) Is there any hope now of in-company based online play? This is asked in light of the many capable software game companies that seem capable of producing such a game. *Something* seems inevitable.

No idea.

4) Is there any chance of the board games (e.g., Wrath of Ashardolon) surpassing the more traditional role playing games? That is asked because the board game market seems a lot bigger than the role playing market.

Depends what they think they can do with them. I guess there's room for an expansion for each of them, but there's got to be a limit to how many of these they can produce. And I'm not sure how much staying power the games have - sure, they're fun to play once or twice, but how often will you come back to them?

If WotC decide to shelve D&D-RPG, I would be at all surprised to see them do a "definitive D&D" that they market as 5e but which actually resembles the board games a lot more than is currently the case. They could sell it as a single big boxed set, possibly with one or two expansions, but made accessible to the casual gamer. Sort of one last attempt to milk something from the game before it goes in the vault.

the Jester · Sep 26, 2011

tomBitonti said:
1) Presuming a relatively small cost to reprint the prior books, these could be put back in print. There seems to be a market for them, but, is there really that much, or rather, is there more than the secondary markets can handle?

I think your presumption is absolutely wrong. It costs a lot to set up a print run, and the smaller the run, the higher the cost-per-unit.

Add to that the fact that 4e would lose some sales (certainly not 1:1, but some) and you have a lower profit product (via smaller print runs) eating away at the more profitable sales... I just can't see it happening.

tomBitonti said:
2) Is there any hope of overcoming the additional barriers of (a) corporate dislike of the OGL (b) intrabrand competition or (c) brand dilution.

It all boils down to, Will this make (more) money (than what we're already doing)? Unless the answer to this becomes a low-risk YES!!, the rest of these concerns are irrelevant from a corporate perspective.

tomBitonti said:
3) Is there any hope now of in-company based online play? This is asked in light of the many capable software game companies that seem capable of producing such a game. *Something* seems inevitable.

Is there hope? Yes. Has WotC's track record with digital stuff been absolutely appallingly bad? GOD YES. Do I think they'll pull the digital initiative out of its own butt and make it work? Let's put it this way: More than a year after the offline tools were scrapped, the online Monster Builder can finally build monsters- but you can't export them to a "building an adventure"-friendly format, and they still use MM1 math. WTF, man, really? After more than a year of waiting for this, we get a Monster Builder that still doesn't offer anything practical to a group that doesn't play with internet devices at the table.

So, is there hope? Sure... sucker.

tomBitonti said:
4) Is there any chance of the board games (e.g., Wrath of Ashardolon) surpassing the more traditional role playing games? That is asked because the board game market seems a lot bigger than the role playing market.

Well, a group needs only one copy of the board game and has no need for, and often no interest in, supplemental materials. Board games are a whole different sort of thing than RPGs; a board game customer is a sale once, whereas an RPG customer is a potential steady stream of income. Even board game collectors aren't great repeat customers; you can buy a new board game from any company and integrate it into "game night" equally easily, but if you run an RPG campaign, you probably buy material for the system you run (i.e. once you buy your Players Handbook, you're pretty likely to end up with Martial Power, which is another sale for WotC, but once you buy Wrath of Ashardalon you're just as likely to make your next game purchase Monopoly or Chess as the Ravenloft board game).

ExploderWizard · Sep 26, 2011

The same answer serves for all these questions: Hasbro

UngainlyTitan · Sep 26, 2011

I suspect that brand dilution is a big factor. Little Johnny goes to and encounter session at the local game store and decided that D&D is cool and he want to try it out.

So he goes and buys the 4e PHBII and the 3.5e MM and DMGII.

Now he tries to make a game of all of this.

Not was WOTC wants. They had in part to bring out Essentials because the box books stores were selling PHB 2& 3 to people trying to get into the game for the first time, as far as I recall from somewhere (probably a podcast)

Now compound this across multiple editions.

The only way we could see Wizards xonxurrently selling multiple editions would be online where they could be sure that anyone looking for an older edition is already aware of the latest supported edition.

Pentius · Sep 26, 2011

There might be wiggle room to argue about whether printing new content for 3.5 would be viable, or even special editions of the core 3 with new art and flavor text or somesuch. Adventures, too.

But a straight reprint of the core 3 would be a terrible move. A quick glance at ebay shows that I could get the entire core 3 for as much or less than WotC would want for each individual book. Yes, books degrade over time. But how much time? These are hardbacks, not tissue paper. I still have my core 3(and somehow two copies of the PHB) and Deities and Demigods for AD&D1e, and those survived not only 30+ years of existence, but most of them in the hands of a child. And they're not even missing pages. Heck, another quick look at ebay shows that I could grab a D&D Basic book for probably less than WotC would want for it(if they could print it new). If more print runs of these old books were to be considered, it would have to be after the current run is no longer in wide circulation.

So, even if they did reprint the core 3, and I were in the market to buy them, I would not buy them from wotc. Anyone who did would either be A: Not shopping around, or B: Doing it out of loyalty and goodwill toward WotC.

And depending on loyalty and goodwill from 3.5 fans who haven't moved to 4e is not a stroke of genius.

Dausuul · Sep 26, 2011

tomBitonti said:
1) Presuming a relatively small cost to reprint the prior books, these could be put back in print. There seems to be a market for them, but, is there really that much, or rather, is there more than the secondary markets can handle?

I'm almost positive the answer is "No, there is not that much." Most of the demand for 3.5E has been swept up by Pathfinder. Like it or not, Wizards has committed itself to 4E. It can go forward to 5E, but back to 3E is no longer a viable option, if it ever was.

tomBitonti said:
2) Is there any hope of overcoming the additional barriers of (a) corporate dislike of the OGL (b) intrabrand competition or (c) brand dilution.

If (a) were the only problem, I doubt it would be a deal-breaker. However, (b) and (c) are both major issues, and rightfully so. For a bloody object lesson in why intrabrand competition and brand dilution are Bad Things, you need only look at the fate of TSR.

tomBitonti said:
3) Is there any hope now of in-company based online play? This is asked in light of the many capable software game companies that seem capable of producing such a game. *Something* seems inevitable.

As a number of folks have observed, 4E actually presents big problems for computer play due to all the out-of-turn abilities. Still, I think we will see the VTT eventually, and at least some licensed 4E games. (I can't see WotC producing the games itself. That's way, way outside their core competency.)

tomBitonti said:
4) Is there any chance of the board games (e.g., Wrath of Ashardolon) surpassing the more traditional role playing games? That is asked because the board game market seems a lot bigger than the role playing market.

Entirely possible, and in fact I suspect WotC is betting on it. I think they envision a world where they serve the casual market with board games, while using those same board games as an entry point into D&D proper. It's a pretty good vision; I hope it works.

FinalSonicX · Sep 26, 2011

I think making pdfs of older editions and older books/supplements would be a great idea (not just 3e but 2nd and 1st and such), but printing them off would be more expensive than second hand purchases through used book stores or ebay, and it would confuse newcomers to the hobby.

Vascant · Sep 26, 2011

I have to wonder if the same reasons WotC do not do this is also why automobile companies do not do this, ever notice the mad rush to sell off last years models every year?. In business you never want your older product being a direct competitor to your current product and that is exactly what would happen there. The difference here I think is the business model does not take into account the depth at which gamers fall in love with editions.

Just my opinion though..