Player vs. Player Discussion

perrinmiller said:

People already have their personal lists of who they won't play with or DMs they will not play under. The PvP of dueling will probably not change that.

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I don't see adding PvP as improving the situation at all though. It just opens the door to more legitimatized player versus player conflict. The examples above illustrate where just words and roleplay have raised tensions in some cases. Opening the door to blows to be exchanged seems more likely to further increase such tensions.

perrinmiller said:

The downside of the restriction on PvP though, is that a punk 2nd level tough guy can pretty much mouth off to a higher level character and get away with it.

Hypothetical point, if Veniarus were to start ticking off Cythera in the DWI to a point where it would come to blows, she would remove his head and the eidolon's too without much effort. But she cannot so...

Every uppity 1-2nd level character with too much testosterone is basically allowed to hide behind momma LPF's skirts without fear of reprisal.

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This doesn't reassure me in the least, if anything it seems to show how PvP will simply serve to escalate matters.

My previous post has nothing to do with dueling, actually but PvP in general. I am beginning to agree with what some of the others that said, if you want to do dueling, go do it and leave LPF out of it. Start a thread and test yourselves.

IronWolf said:

The examples above illustrate where just words and roleplay have raised tensions in some cases. Opening the door to blows to be exchanged seems more likely to further increase such tensions.

This doesn't reassure me in the least, if anything it seems to show how PvP will simply serve to escalate matters.

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Actually, I think it might have the opposite effect. This is the point you did not reply to:

I think if there were the ability to conduct PvP, some people would think twice before trying to role play conflicts with other players. When everyone has a loaded gun and they are allowed to use it, they all tend to be more polite and considerate.

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In Borric's case, he was 4th level fighter and pretty much wanted an apology out of the 2nd level character for being rude. Said lower level character essentially told him to piss off knowing that he could not be touched.

This is a frustrating role-playing situation when a character cannot act in proper character to deal with a situation. Essentially the higher level character has to turn the other cheek.

I can guarantee you that the offending player would have posted differently if he KNEW that there were consequences for his behavior, particularly character death.

I think what people are really worried about is that somebody might abuse their higher level and be a bully. Guess what? There is a half-orc bartender that out ranks everyone. So any bully would be facing a melee character twice his level if he is out of line.

From a pure role-playing perspective, I would rather have PvP be allowed, but regulated. If someone wanted to stay in character and retaliate for IC offenses, they could then publicly appeal to the Judges for PvP permission. More than likely, the other player will back down unless if he is taking things too seriously and thinks he can win.

perrinmiller said:

Hypothetical point, if Veniarus were to start ticking off Cythera in the DWI to a point where it would come to blows, she would remove his head and the eidolon's too without much effort. But she cannot so...

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BTW, this was just an example. Veniarus actually had an IC situation with Ariel and role-played things appropriately as if the possibility of PvP were an option.

But sadly, I don't believe everyone is capable of role-playing that way.

Ironwolf said:

perinnmiller said:

The downside of the restriction on PvP though, is that a punk 2nd level tough guy can pretty much mouth off to a higher level character and get away with it.

Hypothetical point, if Veniarus were to start ticking off Cythera in the DWI to a point where it would come to blows, she would remove his head and the eidolon's too without much effort. But she cannot so...

Every uppity 1-2nd level character with too much testosterone is basically allowed to hide behind momma LPF's skirts without fear of reprisal.

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This doesn't reassure me in the least, if anything it seems to show how PvP will simply serve to escalate matters.

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That is why I was suggesting the arena badge as a pure opt-in. If it is in the rules on the wiki, anyone at anytime when the are feeling annoyed by someone can say...

"I don't see an arena badge on your cloak, and I surely am not wearing one." which SHALL BE DEEMED BY WIKI to equate to a civilized version of "stop annoying me."

Now, the cruel brush off would be
(Kid bothering a veteran ) kid tosses an insult. "Kid, you have no arena badge. Go to the arena and get a virgin badge. Until then, the civilized laws of this city do not allow me to even acknowledge you." Kid runs off and spends 50 gp for his badge and then comes back. "Ahh, you have returned, and they have explained the laws and rules to you?" "Yeah, and I am gonna..." "You see kid, I am not wearing a badge. You can leave me alone, or the city guard will drag you away." "But, But... I spent money for this..."


Verbal mentioning of "the badge" without pulling one out can serve to be the polite, "In Character" way for anyone to say "back off a bit, you are getting on my nerves" without using the OOC tag. That way if someone that thought the were in friendly bickering contest gets the "unmistakeable hint" that the other party thinks they have slipped over the line. If used that way, it can diffuse a squabble before it starts.

In the other direction, pulling a badge out of your pocket and pinning it to your cloak after someone has insulted you is a grand gesture of "You gonna fight or apologize for that!" without having to say a word.
(Would satisfy Borric's case)

I was watching the Veniarus and Fester banter. I couldn't tell if the players were having fun bickering or if one was getting annoyed.

The badge concept is useful for several purposes:
1) No badge: "Nope, not interested in PvP. Try someone else who is advertising they are interested."
2) Just mentioning a badge: "What you thought was playful bickering is actually getting on my nerves. Back off please."
3) Pulling out a badge after having been offended. "Apologize or prepare to get your butt kicked." It is highly recommended the offender back peddles and apologizes at that point.
4) Those that want PvP tests can do so, but it costs a little bit, and they have to specifically advertise they want it. (probably in the title bar of posts would work)

It should diffuse more tense situations that it provokes. It at least gives a "warning flag" and delay round waiting for a response before the hostilities start. When drawn out of the pocket or mentioned, the badge becomes the codified widgit to signify "I am upset" (I hate using clean words) and allows the other party time to say "oops!". When worn by the character before entering the Inn or area, it is a "proud warrior wants to spar" banner.

And these thoughts are coming from one who has been in probably the three ugliest squabbles in the group in the last year.


If we actually move forward on this idea, Grog starts with a white banner with 37 emblems on it. The sight of it coming out at any time should frighten anyone who even owns a badge.

Satin Knights said:

I was watching the Veniarus and Fester banter. I couldn't tell if the players were having fun bickering or if one was getting annoyed.

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I Can't speak for anyone else involved in that interaction, but I was personally having fun

Hmmm, at the risk of sound wishy-washy, I am giving this idea of SK's (and others) more consideration.

I think the whole arena thing would be a welcome addition in it's final form. To be concise:

1. It can serve as vehicle for dueling if two players desired.
2. It can be a way for characters to easily role-play the threat of bodily harm for those IC conflicts we referenced. I think SK and I are beginning to see eye to eye on this in principle.
3. It can provide something for characters to do while waiting for DMs to offer up adventures.

The arena perhaps needs a DM/Judge or two to run it.

I think if you are battling there, your time based awards should be active. Particularly if you are fighting NPCs being run by a DM. That might be enough of an incentive for some to play around in there instead of waiting for a DM to start recruiting. Some people are bored with role-playing in the tavern and just show up when recruiting is coming.

Setting up an encounter is much less time consuming than developing an adventure from a DM perspective. Anyone that wants to try DMing, could cut their teeth on it too. So DMC would be awarded as well.

If a DM was involved with adjudicating a duel, then things probably would not get out of hand. With a 3rd party referee involved, then awards could also apply without the inmates running the asylum to just rack up XP/GP.

Honestly, I don't even have a problem with the arena being deadly if DMs are running things. But, if that is on the table, then the rewards should be equivalent to beating an appropriate CR encounter for XP and GP, not just time-based.

Given one of my strengths as a DM is my mapping and running of tactical encounters, this is actually something right up my alley. I would have more time once either of my two games finishes.

However, to make it work we would need the proposal refined down to be simple to understand and remember.

IronWolf said:

The potential problem comes with one character approaching another character when one doesn't really want to participate. It has potential to lead to mocking another character for cowardice when it is simply they don't enjoy PvP. This leads to increased tensions between players.

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I don't think you can keep people from being jerks if they want to be jerks, and if that's the case, the real issue is someone being a jerk, and not that they're expressing it in PvP.

Systole said:

I don't think you can keep people from being jerks if they want to be jerks, and if that's the case, the real issue is someone being a jerk, and not that they're expressing it in PvP.

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The "guns don't kill people, PEOPLE kill people" argument.

I wonder if the lines on this issue are going to fall the same way, the sides agreeing to disagree and no one being swayed.

perrinmiller said:

I wonder if the lines on this issue are going to fall the same way, the sides agreeing to disagree and no one being swayed.

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This topic started just before Thanksgiving, so I suspect a fair amount of folks are still on holiday mode.

I'd say give time for more discussion into next week. Then someone should probably submit a more specific proposal as a separate thread. I know this thread has bounced around a bit between varying degrees of PvP and ideas.

It is a large enough change (and controversial enough) that even if the vote is yes for allowing it in some form I'd like to at least make sure we have it pretty hammered out and a majority agreement before putting it in place. So it might take some time.

Yeah, it is a ghost town around here.

The way things are shaping up today, might actually have time to try to compile the proposal ideas into something concise and organized. (no offense intended to anyone )

But, off the top of my head there are 2-3 parts to the issue to discuss and a lot of chatter, from myself included, that is cluttering the main points.