Dear Mike & Monte

TheAuldGrump said:

Paladin, witch, inquisitor, rogue, summoner, and ranger.... We are an odd mix....

The Auld Grump

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Apologies for off-topic, but our PF experience, post APG, is also of really weird mixed-bag parties. Current Kingmaker group: Druid, Cavalier, Inquisitor, Ninja, Alchemist, Paladin.

Dear Mike and Monte,

I am responding to the request on this thread because I have strong feelings about the current state of Dungeons and Dragons. Note that I have tried to like 4e, and in some ways, I do like certain aspects. (Themes are a great example.) As well, certain products were highly innovative such as the Essentials line. Monster Vault is my favorite 4e product.

However, overall I am unhappy with the current game system. This fact has forced me to stick with v.3.5 or look towards games such as Castles & Crusades and the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game.

Now, I understand why 4e changed so much after the "experience" that was 3e and the OGL. While I can't say what the final reason(s) was/were at Wizards of the Coast, I can guess. But, I'm not going to go there.

Instead, I want to focus on the positive, and I hope you will do the same. D&D, as a game, has been the driving force behind the roleplaying game industry for nearly as long as I have been alive. In that time, it has changed a lot. Some good, some not so good, and some very bad.

I cut my teeth on Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 2nd Edition; I knew that system had flaws, but I enjoyed the game immensely, regardless. When 3rd Edition was announced, I was excited and skeptical. The game would have to be outstanding for me to love it as much as I did 2E.

Is it wrong for me to say that I loved a pen and paper RPG system. Perhaps.

Regardless, 3E was a smash hit with me. It gave me everything that I needed to truly build my own game world(s). It allowed me to take raw ideas and fit them to the game system. I could create my own races, classes, prestige classes, feats, skills, spells, domains, etc. And I could do it without breaking a sweat.

4E does not allow me the same flexibility to create all that I need. If I'm to buy 5E, it has to allow for modularity. And it must be able to do it quickly and easily. If it doesn't, you've lost me.

I have no problem with the concept of powers. I do have a problem with there being so many of them. Powers should not be the defining concept for 5E. Spells should be spells. Arcane and divine classes (as well as psionic ones) should not be relegated to being the same as martial classes. They are special for a reason. Yes, wielding a sword isn't easy, but it isn't the same as harnessing arcane might or channeling the power of the Gods.

Warriors and rogues can have other options. Stunts, knacks, or whatever you want to call them.

For me, powers should represent something special that goes beyond the traditional core benefits of a class. Abilities that are supernatural and innate come to mind. Powers should stand out above the rest of the core mechanics. Otherwise they are not truly powerful.

(And the core classes should be THE core classes that go back to the beginning of the game. Period. Save the "new" classes for splats or a Player's Handbook II.)

How do you implement this? I do not know. I wish I did. I wish I could make it easy for you and for everyone else that plays/DMs D&D.

What I do know is this: you cannot just throw away the history of the game. The new planar design is interesting, but tore down too much of what existed previously. That was a huge minus for me. A redesign is a good idea, but it must pay homage to the game's roots.

I have no problem with the new core gods. The core game should have its own core pantheon that is separate from the rest of the D&D worlds. The new alignment system has grown on me although there should be an option to use the old nine alignment system.

Yes, I'm asking a lot.

The core game needs to be accessible to everyone. I understand WotC's need for DDI, and it has been a resounding success for those who love the idea of everything being online. I wish I was one of them, but I am not.

I guess this makes me an old grognard. So be it.

I need the physical product in my hands. Accessing game material electronically is okay, but it can never replace the feel of the books in my hand. I guess the thing I miss the most are the physical copies of DRAGON and DUNGEON Magazine. Yes, I realize that print magazines are dying, but I still miss them. (Thank the Maker for Kobold Quarterly.)

5E needs a way to get the online content into my hands as a printed reference. I need that option or you've lost me.

POD comes to mind.

Now for the really hard part. The whole OGL vs. GSL vs. no open support at all debate.

I know what I want, but I don't think I'm going to get it. I want WotC to embrace open gaming once again. Yes, more restrictions are fine. Whatever protects your IP should be considered. But it cannot cripple the spirit of the license. The GSL was a fart in the dark. A puff of wind pointed at the 3PP community.

Yes, I know I said I wasn't going to go there, but I needed to write it.

If WotC isn't going to support the spirit of the Open Gaming ideal, then I say "just forget it." Move on. Make D&D the best game it can be without worrying about whether or not it has 3rd-party support. The game has always been at/near the top of the roleplaying game industry. I believe 5E can remain so even without an OGL. (But. I. Still. Want. One!)

As long as the core game is good, I will likely buy it. If the entire game is great, I will jump for joy.

Thank you for your time.

Regards,

Robert P. Blezard
a.k.a. Knightfall

Edmonton, Alberta
CANADA

Upper_Krust said:

2. Boxed Sets

Break up the tiers into seperate boxed sets (just like the original Dungeons & Dragons).

- Red Box (Basic/Heroic), Green Box (Expert/Paragon), Blue Box (Master/Epic).
- Stagger the release of each boxed set by 4 months.
- Put different design teams (and different artists to give each a seperate look and feel) on each tier of play, in effect make them try and out-do each other.

Red Box
- Basic DM Rules and quick start guide.
- PC Rules for Levels 1-10 and easy step guide to creating a character.
- Relatively Civilized World Areas (Towns, Forests, Hills, Swamps, Dungeons)
- Crux of the set focuses on Dungeoneering/Questing.
- Small Town detailed as the staging point for campaigns.
- Pick 10 classic themes (Goblin caves, Bandit camp, Orc fortress, Vampire Castle etc.), each targeting one level of play and create 10 monsters of varying levels and ranks around each theme.
- Include illustrated character sheets for 8 iconic characters (representing 8 different classes and races) as well as the obligatory blank character sheet for photocopying.
- A character's race basically becomes the 'paragon path' of levels 1-10.
- Small introductory adventure with maps and counters (optional deluxe/expensive boxed set with miniatures instead of counters)
- Red Dice (one of each type)

Green Box
- Basic DM Rules and quick start guide (reprint from Red Box)
- PC Rules for Levels 11-20 and easy step guide to creating a character.
- Hostile world areas (Deserts, Arctic Regions, Volcanic Regions, Underwater, Underdark)
- Crux of the set focuses on Stronghold Building/Running and adding Politics to your game.
- Mass Combat rules.
- Country detailed with players initially given a border keep to run (the keep thats part of the town detailed in the Red Box).
- Pick 10 classic themes (Drow City, Yuan-ti Fortress, Volcanic Prison, Liches' Lair, etc.), each targeting one level of play and create 10 monsters of varying levels and ranks around each theme.
- Include Updated illustrated character sheets for 8 iconic characters as well as the obligatory blank character sheet for photocopying.
- Small introductory adventure with maps and counters (optional deluxe/expensive boxed set with miniatures instead of counters)
- Green Dice (one of each type)

Blue Box
- Basic DM Rules and quick start guide (reprint from Red Box)
- PC Rules for Levels 21-30 and easy step guide to creating a character.
- The Planes (Feywild, Shadowfell, Astral Plane, Elemental Chaos, Far Realm)
- Crux of this set focuses on running a Country and the path to becoming an immortal.
- Continent detailed with players initially in charge of their own country (the country thats detailed in the Green Box).
- Rules for Gigantic monsters.
- Pick 10 classic themes (Demonweb Pits, Zehir's Pyramid, Iron Tower of Dispater, Tiamat's Lair), each targeting one level of play and create 10 monsters of varying levels and ranks around each theme.
- Include Updated illustrated character sheets for 8 iconic characters as well as the obligatory blank character sheet for photocopying.
- Small introductory adventure with maps and counters (optional deluxe/expensive boxed set with miniatures instead of counters)
- Blue Dice (one of each type)

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This is exactly what my post earlier would have said if I had been cleverer and more structured in my thinking

I don't expect them to do this, but I would love them to. I think it could be a brilliant introduction to D&D campaigns, moving beyond 'the dungeon' and scaling adventures up into more complex environments and 'types' of adventure.

Cheers

P1NBACK said:

There's a dynamic that can't be attained from "balanced" classes. And, the only reason you would need them to be balanced is if your game was only about combat.

Classes need to fill different voids, for different styles of players and personalities. There is more to the game than combat, and classes enable those players who enjoy the other things to excel in those areas.

Balance has nothing to do with that. So, why do we need it?

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No, things are not all about combat, but the disparity in power did not just exist in areas of combat, but also in the social sphere and skills. Magic was never just for combat, though fighting is. Why be a skill-monkey or trap-master when the wizard can do the job potentially much better with the right spell or two? Why be a warrior, when the wizard can do the job potentially much better? Why be a charismatic socialite when the wizard can potentially do it much better with the right spell or two? Yes, every class should have its own niche in which they can fill the void, but the problem was that many of the magic classes filled the void in ways that snubbed out the mundanes. The magic classes generally filled the void and then some. Their powers and lists kept expanding such that they could replicate practically everything done by the mundanes. There are limitations to fighting, but there were practically little limitations to magic apart from running out of spells, which became a non-issue at higher levels. So while I agree with your design philosophy in theory, it unfortunately did not work out that way in practice, at least in my own experience.

Upper_Krust said:

Blue Box
- Basic DM Rules and quick start guide (reprint from Red Box)
- PC Rules for Levels 21-30 and easy step guide to creating a character.
- The Planes (Feywild, Shadowfell, Astral Plane, Elemental Chaos, Far Realm)

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I'm gonna throw my copy of the Planescape box set at you.

While the planes are full of terrible things and even more terrible environments depending on who/what you are and what plane we're talking about, there's no reason at all to restrict the planes to only players above a certain level. It's more difficult at times and perhaps very selective when you're low level, but I hesitate to go down that road for fear of the whole 'planes as extraplanar dungeons' dynamic creeping into play.

I much prefer the late 2e handling of that in opening up the planes to PCs of much varied levels. Designing a new edition, I'd hope that would be the case.

I don't think Upper Krust is limiting the planes to upper level characters. I think the general idea, if I am understanding his intent correctly, is simply to divide the environments evenly and that planes are just more convenient to put in the "epic level box." But I would imagine, just like with all the other content distributed amongst the three boxes, that you could honestly use the content and flavor itself for any level.

Shemeska said:

While the planes are full of terrible things and even more terrible environments depending on who/what you are and what plane we're talking about, there's no reason at all to restrict the planes to only players above a certain level. It's more difficult at times and perhaps very selective when you're low level, but I hesitate to go down that road for fear of the whole 'planes as extraplanar dungeons' dynamic creeping into play.

I much prefer the late 2e handling of that in opening up the planes to PCs of much varied levels. Designing a new edition, I'd hope that would be the case.

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That's exactly what I didn't like about Planescape. The outer realms became a playground for humans (of any level). I find it implausible (even by fantasy standards) and it's just too humanocentric for me. It's like mice putting on airs in a big house, strutting about like they're so important -- instead of being constantly frightened and scurrying and hiding and trying not to get caught and killed by cats or mousetraps or giant brooms.

Then, to add insult to injury, these pretentious low-level humans (ala mice) had acquired an annoyingly haughty planar cant. Instead of dying in droves, getting murdered, kidnapped, enslaved, tortured, soul-sucked, and meeting horrible ends from wrathful angels and terrifying demons, or at least humbly living by the very skin of their teeth, instead they're strutting around mildly insulting each other.

Please, 5E, keep the mortal world humanocentric, and the other planes an inhuman and dangerous realm where mostly epic heroes dare to trespass.

Edit: Excluding the Feywild and Shadowfell, which I think are fine for Paragon tier, maybe dabbling in Heroic tier, as they're a twisted reflection of the mortal world, and I believe the game supports this by stating that each prime world is mirrored by its respective faerie and shadow lands.

4th Edition made the Planes more accessible at lower levels and I think that is a good thing.

i am completely opposed to this idea of box sets introducing options slowly. Great for newbies maybe, but not people that are very familiar and want to dive right in to all possibilities. Make a proper beginners set, but don't make that the only option for everyone.

Howdy Hussar!

Hussar said:

Upper Krust, the only thing I would add to your boxes is a gift certificate for a free year of DDI with every box.

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Good idea!

That and my Red box would use the Chaos Scar as the base campaign. It's right there after all.

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Possibly, though I'd be interested in seeing something fresh with the new edition.

Howdy Plane Sailing!

Plane Sailing said:

This is exactly what my post earlier would have said if I had been cleverer and more structured in my thinking

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I meant to add...

- Give the boxes more depth than the contents require so that you can use them to contain later supplements.

I don't expect them to do this, but I would love them to. I think it could be a brilliant introduction to D&D campaigns, moving beyond 'the dungeon' and scaling adventures up into more complex environments and 'types' of adventure.

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I think they have to do it.

I think the main problem with D&D (RPGs in general) is appealing to new customers. Not only is there a bewildering choice of DOZENs of books, but it won't be apparent to the casual customer, what they should buy.

The boxed set approach solves that.

Strong colour-coding with the design will also help people keep track of what books they need. Although I think the original OD&D boxed set colours were too overwhelming (in terms of the amount of flat colour to artwork, the colours dominated too much), I'd probably have the front colour like a big letter 'D' maybe with a thin left stroke and bolder right stroke.

Red (Box & Supplements) Basic Game (Levels 1-10)
Green (Box & Supplements) Advanced Game (Levels 11-20)
Blue (Box & Supplements) Expert Game (Levels 21-30)
White (Supplements) Neutral (non-tier specific) material (like campaign settings)
Gold (Box & Supplements) potential (Master Game?) Immortals Tier material

So a customer can go into the store and they know they just need one product to play the game. They don't need 3 books, a set of dice, miniatures, to photocopy character sheets in one of the books, maps and so on. Everything is self-contained within the box and you can start play within 30 minutes of opening it and familiarising yourself with the contents.

Since OD&D, there has been no real colour coding attempt. Thats okay if you have maybe half a dozen products, but when you have 30-40 books and supplements it can be hard for the casual customer to know which from which.

If instead you have strong colour thematic design. You have a Red Box and red trade-dressed supplements clearly marked:

Basic Game: EXPANSION BOOK 1 - PLAYERS HANDBOOK
Basic Game: EXPANSION BOOK 2 - MONSTER MANUAL
Basic Game: EXPANSION BOOK 3 - ADVENTURE (which basically contains the Dungeon Master's Guide portion of the material. Why have books for detailing traps or new magic items when you can create an adventure and use those traps/items within the adventure and showcase them then and there).