4 Hours w/ RSD - Escapist Bonus Column

As many of you know, the Escapist has recently run a 3-part series on the past, current and future of Dungeons & Dragons. The ENWorld coverage begins here. I contributed some insights to that column and wanted to take this opportunity to expand and clarify some of my thoughts on this topic. Who Is This Guy Anyway? I [Ryan Dancey] have been involved on the business side of hobby game...

As many of you know, the Escapist has recently run a 3-part series on the past, current and future of Dungeons & Dragons. The ENWorld coverage begins here.

I contributed some insights to that column and wanted to take this opportunity to expand and clarify some of my thoughts on this topic.

GenCon2009-LisaStevens-OVC0U8.jpg

Who Is This Guy Anyway?

I [Ryan Dancey] have been involved on the business side of hobby game publishing since 1993, when I operated one of the first on-line/mail order hobby game stores, RPG International. It was through my work at RPG International that I met the team at Alderac Entertainment Group with whom I co-created the Legend of the Five Rings intellectual property, eventually spinning it out into a stand-alone company called Five Rings Publishing Group which was acquired by Wizards of the Coast in 1997 as a part of the process whereby Wizards also acquired TSR. I was at Wizards, working as a brand manager on trading card games and eventually leading the brand and business unit for Dungeons & Dragons until early in 2001 when I left to found a startup providing organized play services to 3rd party game companies, wound that down in 2003 and worked as a consultant until 2007 when I became the Chief Marketing Officer of CCP. Currently I’m the CEO of Goblinworks, a startup company developing a next-generation fantasy MMO.

I give that background (again for those of you who read the first column in this series; sorry for the repetition) just to establish the fact that I’ve been watching this industry closely for a very long time and feel I’ve got some insights worth sharing.

The Tabletop Roleplaying Game Hobby Is Contracting

Let me begin with a few simple statistics.

In 1995, when I was writing the business plan for the Legend of the Five Rings CCG, I assumed, based on the conventional wisdom at the time, that there were approximately 5,000 full line hobby gaming stores in the North American market. After arriving at Wizards of the Coast in 1997, I was surprised to discover that Wizards had been able to identify (after extensive work) only about 2,500 stores. In addition, there were about 2,500-3,000 mass-market book stores that sold some hobby gaming products; mostly TRPGs, and mostly just D&D.

Today, the best data I have been able to assemble leads me to believe that there are less than 1,000 full line hobby gaming stores left, and there may be as few as 500.

Of those mass-market bookstores, B. Dalton is gone. Waldenbooks is gone. Borders is going. Barnes & Nobel is not healthy. Today, there are only about 1,000 mass-market bookstores left (717 are Barnes & Nobel stores). That is meaningful because historically 50% of the D&D business was sold via mass-market bookstores and the loss of those stores has directly impacted D&D (and other TRPGs) significantly.

In 1994, when I attended my first GenCon, the list of exhibitors at the show included many companies that earned most (or all) of their income from selling tabletop RPGs, and who employed one or more full time TRPG designer/developers: Atlas Games, Chaosium, Dream Pod Nine, FASA, Game Designers Workshop, Heartbreaker, Hero Games, Iron Crown Enterprises, Mayfair, Palladium, R. Talsorian, Steve Jackson Games, TSR, West End Games, White Wolf, and I’m sure there’s others I’ve regretfully omitted.

In addition to those companies there was another constellation of small publishers consisting of one or two people trying to make a start in the business, working part time as TRPG designer/publishers, and buzzing around all these companies were dozens (maybe as many as a hundred) freelancers who made all or a significant part of their incomes from TRPG design work.

It’s notable that many in the industry saw the period from 1994-1999 as being fairly bad for TRPGs. The twin rise of collectible card games and the Games Workshop hobby appeared to be draining the TRPG segment of designers and of revenue. The most obvious sign of this problem was the failure of TSR’s business, leading to its acquisition by Wizards of the Coast in 1997.

I would argue that the segment actually brought on most of its woes by simply producing too much product. The proliferation of games, game worlds, and “house systems” so fragmented the market that despite indications that overall revenue remained fairly constant for TRPGs as a segment, the income earned per product and per company became so sub-divided that many (both products & companies) became unprofitable.

A second major factor at work was the consolidation of the distribution tier. When I was selling Legend of the Five Rings in 1996, we had an initial list of North American distributors of about 50. By the end of the decade, that list had shrunk to about a dozen. In fact, virtually every distributor in the market was either sold or closed between 1990 and 1999 – the people who had created the distribution network for TRPGs cashed out to the people who rebuilt it for the CCG business.

This consolidation had an unexpected effect on the TRPG publishers. Every distributor prior to the late 1990s had engaged in a practice whereby they ordered product from TRPG publishers in bulk, and held the inventory in their warehouses to fulfill retailer orders as needed. The standard industry terms were for the distributors to pay the publishers 30 days after receipt of the products. This created cashflow that sustained the publishers – they did not have to wait for every book they printed to sell, they could get the money immediately and transfer the risk of slow sales to the distribution tier. And in addition, every distributor tended to order about 10% more than they could realistically sell, as a hedge against as surprise hit. When the distribution tier consolidated, the publishers suddenly lost tremendous volume in terms of sales and cash. That 10%, multiplied by 50 distributors, was a lot of books. And the distributors that were left were run with much tighter financial policies, leading many to cease pre-paying for inventory and instead asking to hold it “on consignment” – that is, they wanted to pay for the product as they sold it, transferring the risk back to the publishers.

When I took control of the brand & business unit for TRPGs at Wizards of the Coast at the end of 1997, I asked Lisa Stevens to do a market research project to figure out what had really happened in the history of the industry and how we had (collectively) gotten ourselves into the deep hole we found ourselves in.

There were two basic answers revealed by her research.

The first was that the products the industry was producing had become too costly. The boxed set, in particular, was a huge problem. The cost of a boxed set vs. a hardcover book was often a multiple, rather than a percentage. The cost of a hardcover vs. a softcover book was also substantial. In fact, we found several high profile D&D products that were costing the company more to make than the suggested retail price of those products! This issue was endemic throughout the industry, since many publishers assumed they had to “keep up” with TSR in order to be competitive. But TSR wasn’t acting rationally, and had set its suggested retail prices based on its opinion of what the market would pay, not based on what they needed to charge in order to make a profit on the things they were publishing.

In this field, we often use a shorthand pricing system called the “Rule of 5”. Under this rule, you determine the suggested price of a product by multiplying the cost of the product by 5. Factoring in the 3-tier distribution system the industry uses, the result is that the final suggested retail price produces the following divisions:

• 20%: Cost of Goods (the cost of the production of the product, plus the wages paid to people who worked on it and any licenses or royalties)
• 20%: Gross Profit (that is, profit before subtracting all operational costs like salaries, marketing, rent, etc.) to the Publisher
• 20%: Distributor Margin (the gross profit the Distributor earns)
• 40%: Retailer Margin (the gross profit the Retailer earns)

This means that every $1 of cost increases the suggested retail price by $5. Some of the things TSR was doing were adding $10 to the cost of its products – which should have added $50 to the suggested retail prices – easily pushing many of those products into the $100 range. Instead, TSR was just losing money every time it sold one of these products. And the people who made those products never knew, because TSR’s dysfunctional management system hid that information from them. It was not until they got to Wizards of the Coast and had a chance to see the “real numbers” that they realized what had been happening.

The second issue that Lisa’s data revealed led us to our conceptual breakthrough about the business of TRPGs that shaped every decision we made when bringing the 3rd Edition of D&D to the market.

We realized that TRPGs fall into a special class of products & services that generate network effects. In our case, the effect that had the most impact was the concept of the network externality. For TRPGs, the “true value” of the product is not in the book/box that you buy. It is in the network of social connections that you share which enable you to play the game. Without that social network, the game’s value is massively reduced (it becomes literature, and there’s a small market for people who like to just read and never play TRPG content).

We began to view the market not as a series of product pyramids (a core book at the top, and an ever-broadening base of support materials produced over time), but instead as a series of human webs that overlapped and interconnected. Where those webs were strong, the products flourished. Where they were weak, the products failed. The limiting factor to the growth and strength of the TRPG market was not retail stores or shelf space, it was human brains within which these games could interconnect.

The more segmented those brains became, the weaker the overall social network was. Every new game system, and every new variant to those systems, subdivided that network further, making it weaker. Between 1993 and 1999, the social network of the TRPG players had become seriously frayed. Even if you just looked at the network of Dungeons & Dragons players you could see this effect: People self-segmented into groups playing Basic D&D, 1st Edition, 2nd Edition, and within 2nd Edition into various Campaign Settings that had become their own game variants. The effect on the market was that it became increasingly hard to make and sell something that had enough players in common that it would earn back its costs of development and production.

We looked around the industry and saw the same problem at virtually every company that had become successful: White Wolf had 5 World of Darkness games which were all slightly different, surrounded by a more diffuse constellation of games somewhat related to the Storyteller system but designed to be mutually incompatible. FASA had 4 games, none of which shared anything in common. Palladium & Steve Jackson Games both had “house systems” that they tried to use across their entire product lines, but they had ended up with the “Campaign Setting” issue that was bedeviling TSR; the variant rules at the edges of their games were creating independent game networks despite the shared DNA of the core. And we knew that inside every one of those companies they were seeing the same financial information we were seeing: Each new release was selling fewer and fewer copies, and in response, the companies were increasing the pace of releases trying to sustain planned revenues by volume of titles, not by volume of units. And it was killing everyone.

Our analysis lead us to the conclusion that in order to escape this trap, D&D at least had to try and unify its player community around one set of universally acceptable rules. And we had to cut back drastically on the number of different books we were publishing to focus spending on individual titles to drive up profitability. It was literally better to sell 7 copies of one book vs. 5 copies of two different books due to the economies of scale involved.

We hooked that train up to the engine of the Open Gaming License to help spur consolidation of game systems towards a common core, and to enable publishers who wanted to just make a great world or a cool sourcebook to do so without having to first make their own homebrew RPG (and thus fragment the market), and watched the resulting highly entertaining explosion in creativity and revenues in the market starting in 2000.

If you take that list of companies that were active at GenCon in 1994, you have to add all sorts of new names by the time you get to the GenCons of 2001/2: Alderac Entertainment Group, Decipher, Eden Studios, Fantasy Flight Games, Goodman Games, Green Ronin, Guardians of Order, Holistic Design, Kenzer & Co, Malhavoc Press, Mongoose, Necromancer, Pagan Publishing, Pinnacle Entertainment Group, and a host of others that I’m certainly omitting unintentionally. Of course many of these companies were active prior to the OGL/D20 era and many never published D20 products but they all benefited from the resurgence of D&D.

Add to that a number of “indie” RPG companies that were supporting one or two full time designer/publishers like Ron Edwards, Luke Crane, and Vince Baker. The indy RPG segment was getting good advice and learning how to be financially viable via the exchanges on the Forge and other sites dedicated to small press publishing – work that continues to today and has helped create a large number of independently published small TRPGs exploring niches that larger mass-market TRPGs would never have attempted.

Feeding all that activity was an even larger cadre of freelancers than had been in place in the 1990s – the D20 System enabled folks who would never otherwise have tried their hand at commercial design to get paid for their ideas, who joined the pre-existing ranks of freelance creative people working with the major publishers.

Let’s set the high-water mark of the TRPG industry as GenCon 2003, where Wizards released the 3.5 edition of D&D. Shortly thereafter the dominoes started to fall: Incompatibilities between 3.0 and 3.5 meant that a lot of inventory on store shelves became “obsolete” in the minds of customers, resulting in a huge drop in sales and an effort by the retailers to clear that inventory at deep discounts. With the drop in sales came a drop in orders for new products – retailers got skittish about investing more money into a market that was causing them massive headaches.

It’s possible that things could have found a natural bottom at this juncture, and that the market could have rebuilt itself on the 3.5 platform.

Unfortunately, it was never going to get that chance.

At the end of 2004, Blizzard released World of Warcraft. The MMO market which had been considered an interesting curiosity by the tabletop RPG market suddenly exploded. Whereas the previously most successful game (EverQuest) had attracted about 400,000 concurrent paying accounts at the height of its success, World of Warcraft exceeded a million players within 12 months. By the end of 2007, it had more than 5 million players in the US and Europe. An entire new market grew up around World of Warcraft as other companies rushed into the space, quickly creating offerings outside of the basic fantasy of Warcraft, including superheroes, science fiction, cyberpunk, and military history: the very foundations of the TRPG market.

Worse (for the TRPG business) the MMOs also went after young children and engaged them in ways that TRPGs weren’t. Club Penguin, in particular, was so good at getting young kids into its game that Disney bought it for $700 million, and it was reported to have more than 30 million kids playing it.

Almost overnight the TRPG industry suffered two quick body-blows. A large number of people within its network externality left their TRPG groups to focus on MMOs. And instead of receiving the benefits of an acquisition engine generating new players every year, young kids got diverted into MMOs at an age earlier than any suitable TRPG offering, likely establishing a play pattern they’ll keep through to adulthood.

The effects on the TRPG market are now quite visible. At GenCon 2011, the number of companies that were paying full time salaries for TRPG game designer/developers was reduced to a short list: Alderac Entertainment, Kenzer & Co., Fantasy Flight Games, Margaret Weiss Productions, Mongoose, Palladium, Paizo, Steve Jackson Games, White Wolf, Wizards of the Coast, and one or two smaller “indy” publishers. Missing from that list are many of the successful companies that were thriving in 1994 and 2001/2 – lost to the industry as well are the freelancer jobs that those companies used to sustain.

Some of those companies continue to publish as secondary sources of income for their owners: Green Ronin and Pinnacle Entertainment Group are great examples of this phenomenon. But that seems to me to be a very precarious place to operate - the margin for error (or accident) is razor thin.

And the contraction is continuing. Wizards of the Coast has laid off a number of designers, as has White Wolf. Hero Games announced that it is ceasing to operate with a full-time staff. Problems at Catalyst indicate that it may be a while before they’re able to sustain the TRPG businesses they inherited from FASA.

So we see the causes: Rise of MMOs, collapse of retailing, and consolidation of distribution. And we see the effects – loss of jobs, shuttering of companies, and virtually no new startup publishers in the space with a mass audience.

Where Does This End?

My opinion is that the hobby gaming industry is going to transform into a very small niche business. It will cater primarily to an aging group of players who have made TRPGs their lifetime hobbies. As those players age, they’ll need less and less support in the form of commercially produced products. They will instead seek out community support tools to help them remain in touch with their hobby even as the social network they’re directly connected to becomes ever more frayed.

In the Escapist articles I am quoted as saying that this process will be like the evolution of the model train hobby. What I could have been more clear about was that my belief in this transformation is driven not by escalating costs (as in the case with model trains) but instead by the lack of an effective acquisition engine to drive new players into the TRPG hobby, and by the continued subtraction from the TRPG social network caused by MMOs.

As neither of these problems is structural to the TRPG industry, and are both driven by external factors, there’s very little that can be done to counter them directly.

Future Paths

Digital


The first thing that a lot of folks ask for when engaged about the future of the hobby is a virtual table top. It seems kind of obvious – if MMOs are breaking the social network of TRPGs then the way to fight back is to take the TRPG to the MMO’s territory and enable distributed on-line play.

The problem is that VTTs exist, and they’re not successful. If you give people the choice between a VTT and an MMO, they pick the MMO. The VTT doesn’t solve the real problem that is that the MMO experience is simply better for a significant portion of the former TRPG social network. My opinion is that a successful and widely used VTT will remain an elusive mirage despite how much effort is poured into developing them.

That is not to say that there’s no role for digital in the future of the TRPG. Transforming the delivery mechanism of TRPGs into digital products is, I think, the likely evolutionary path. And I’m not talking about just PDFs of printed books – I’m talking about the idea of making a digital product that takes advantage of all that implies to deliver an improved tabletop experience using iPad-type technology.

Conversion to Family Games

I define a Hobby Game as one where (at least one person) spends more time preparing to play the game than actually playing it. For TRPGs that is usually the GM, but often it is players as well. This “out of game time” may be the biggest obstacle to overcome to keeping the TRPG platform competitive.

I think that commercially successful TRPGs of the future will be constructed more like a family game – something that can be unpacked, learned quickly, and played with little prep work. These games will give people a lot of the same joy of “roleplaying” and narrative control that they get from today’s Hobby Game TRPGs but with a fraction of the time investment. Wizards is already experimenting with this format, as is Fantasy Flight Games. It seems like a good bet that there is a substantially profitable business down this line of evolution.

Pathfinder

I will end this essay by talking a bit about Pathfinder and it’s role in the market.

One of the goals of the OGL and the D20 project was to ensure that no single company would ever have the ability to kill Dungeons & Dragons. TSR almost did so; near the end of its existence it had pledged the copyrights and trademarks of the D&D franchise as security against loans it could not afford to repay. Had TSR gone into bankruptcy it is likely that for at least some time, and possibly an extremely lengthy period, nobody would have had the right to publish using that IP while the bankers fought over the carcass of TSR.

The OGL/D20 project also ensured that a version of D&D would exist as of the 3rd Edition version no matter what future incarnation of D&D might be developed. Future versions of D&D would be benchmarked against that milestone, and if the market decided they did not want to switch to the new version, unlike in previous iterations where all commercial support for the previous version would be terminated, the market would be able to keep supporting the version that they preferred. This raises a high bar to future versions of D&D – you have to be so much better than the 3e game that people will voluntarily switch platforms.

Pathfinder has (obviously) become the game that represents that 3rd Edition milestone in the minds of the majority of the players, and is benefiting from the fact that it seems the number of voluntary switches to 4e was less than Wizards had hoped.

Any time a market contracts, a phenomenon is observed which is called a “flight to quality”. This means that the people who remain in a contracting market tend to concentrate their business around the most successful parts of the market, hoping that they’ll be able to ride out the collapse and make it to a future expansionary period. This is what is happening right now with Pathfinder. The social network that was coalesced by the D20 System has been inherited by Pathfinder. Even as the rest of the market is getting smaller, Pathfinder is getting bigger because its attracting all the people who remain interested in the TRPG format.

Paizo, for its part, is still trying to re-start the acquisition engine. The Beginner Box it released this year is the best intro product that the TRPG market has seen in well over a decade (maybe 2 decades). I’m certain that there are kids who got it for Christmas and are right now getting their first taste of the TRPG experience. Hopefully those kids will decide to spend at least a part of their gaming time around the tabletop rather than the MMO virtual worlds. Only time will tell.

My instinct is that Pathfinder will be the lifeboat that the long-term hobbyists will use to keep the social network from fraying past the point of no return. There’s enough people playing it and interacting both locally and virtually that I think it has the momentum it needs to sustain itself even if a total worst case scenario would unfold (Barnes & Noble also fails, and the full line hobby game store ceases to exist). Paizo is doing the right things in making its community and its market one unified whole, which is a great insurance policy against forces beyond its control.

Where Goes D&D?

I’d like to expound on this topic in more detail. Unfortunately, I’m privy to confidential information that makes that impossible at this time. I see the same things you all see – Monte Cook going back to Wizards of the Coast and a general recognition in the market that 4th Edition was not commercially successful. I think that in 2012 I’ll have a lot more to say about D&D, but that will have to wait for a future column. For now I’ll just end by saying that I hope with all my heart that the folks at Wizards of the Coast figure out how to get that franchise righted and back on track, because it would be good for the hobby in general for D&D to become a strong brand again.

--RSD / Atlanta, December 2011
 

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Ryan S. Dancey

Ryan S. Dancey

OGL Architect

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
There's some vitriol creeping into some of these posts. Please remember where you are. Disagree politely and address the argument, not the character of the poster.
 

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Stalker0

Legend
A very well written and thoughtful article.

There are two points that I agree with Mr. Dancey and wanted to highlight:

1) Dnd's strength lies in the social network of its players. The more unified the player base, ultimately the stronger the RPG market becomes.

2) MMOs are attracting kids/teenagers before they are hitting RPG age, and so is pulling their attention away from those avenues.


With those in mind, I see two major issues for the future of DND:

1) Moving away from the new edition model to generate revenue. Even 2nd edition designers noted the difficulty in selling a new edition without fragmenting the base into 1st and 2nd editioners.

Each edition has showed an initial period of strong revenue followed by diminishing returns as players buy less and less of the "non-core books".

A new edition counters this by introducing new core books and results in increased sales, but also generates fragmentation in the industry which hinders long term prospects. Taken to the extreme, it could result in a market where the majority of players play an old "favorite edition", and a new edition is only sellable to a much smaller group, a phenomena that I think we are already starting to see now.

Ultimately, the business model has to change to prevent that. And I think WOTC answer to that is the DDI. While I don't always agree with how WOTC implements the DDI, I think its a good business direction to take.

When you look at products like the characters builder and monster builder, players aren't so much buying "product" as they are buying "services". We are buying tools to enhance our RPG experience.

While I may only pay a single fee for a product, I will pay much longer to maintain a service that I enjoy, which is done correctly provides WOTC a continuing revenue stream without the need to generate constant new product, and ultimately new editions.



2) DND has to continue to try and market outside of its market. This to me is a two fold process: You have to market to kids before they get into MMOs and other competing products, and you have to market to them in a way that can pull them away from competing products.

Someone mentioned a new DND video game as a great marketing tool, and I completely agree. As a video game, it hits the MMO style markets, but its just DND enough to perhaps expose them to more traditional roleplaying.

I think this is DND greatest remaining strength as a brand. Even people who have never played RPGs have at least heard of DND. Used correctly, it might provide the influx of new players the industry needs to grow.



Now, all of that gives me a bit of hope. But when looked at from a big picture standpoint, this is a TOUGH PROBLEM, one that has not been solved yet. I would like to credit Mr. Dancey for highlighting the problem in a very elegant way.
 

Oh your talking about the 'classic' VTTs and a specific VTT like this:
RPG Virtual Tabletop

It's still in beta and I don't know what the development status is for this thing, but it's certainly a extensive product and isn't done in a 'few weeks' by a 'couple developers'. $71.40 a year for DDI subscription (includes more tools and content)

There's already Fantasy Grounds II out, should work for 4E. Although quite pricey at $150 for the a DM client and unlimited players, but if you use it a lot, more then worth the money.

There are of course free options, MapTool seems popular and TTopRPG seems promising.

But I wouldn't call those commercial successes, more like labors of love (except the official 4E version that is still in beta after more then a year). Look at the hourly wage of a freelance programmer, you need a project leader, you need testers and test managers (and I don't mean gamers trying the software in beta), database specialist, graphical designer, servers, folks that act as sysadmins for those servers, etc.

It's a shame that most of the workable solutions are either dedicated Windows/MacOS clients or require JAVA (like the official 4E app) ack! I would love to see a html5 version that works in most if not all html5 capable browsers.

As for the basement comment, when I give advice or troubleshoot on some computer or gaming forum, I don't charge a thing. When I give advice or troubleshoot for a paying business I charge $62.50 (excl. VAT) an hour and I'm no programmer (I can program, but not at a speed that would make it a viable profession). I do both in my attic, the same place I'm typing this comment, behind two 30" monitors, connected to a powerful workstation, at my business/hobby desk.

There's a big difference between a business and a hobby, sometimes folks have a dream and want to build their dream for themselves. Often such small operations burnout after a while, RolePlayingMaster is a good example of this. A program with great potential, but was eventually abandoned by the developer (2001-2006), a shame because I spent a lot of time working with/on it (and the developer) hunting bugs.

It is of course ridiculous that after 3.5 years after the 4E release the 4E VTT is still in beta, something like that should have been available at launch.

Yeah, on the subject of VTTs, I do actually run a business writing both client and server applications and web apps for line of business applications. I've also talked a bit with the MapTool people and looked at the source code. It is a huge complex piece of software which has easily consumed quite a few man-years of programming effort. Having played with it I'd say it is still in many ways far from ideal as something you would base a product on. It certainly COULD become that product, but it would require yet more man-years of work. I'd say as a 'back of the envelope' estimate on what something like that would take as a project starting from scratch, probably 10 man-years, which means you're talking something in the 1-2 million range for development. I think this is probably FAR beyond the range of any game company besides possibly WotC, and even then it would be a pretty large investment and I strongly doubt they would be able to pitch that to their management.

Now, eventually these things might become reasonably inexpensive, say basically if MapTool 2.0 (which will probably take a couple more years to complete) had full plug-in capability and a much improved macro language and other improvements. Even then, running games requires the DM to do a lot of work. I found running 4e on MapTool required 2-3 times more prep work than running at the table. It does get somewhat easier with time, but at a bare minimum you've got to assemble large libraries of artwork, master a complex macro framework, write macros for each new monster, test them, etc. Being able to share with the rest of the community and having a more professionally designed framework, etc could bring that down to a more reasonable level, but it is overall going to be a few more years before we get there.

However, I think I agree with people who say this COULD eventually be a really serious way forward. I could see a DDI with a REALLY polished VTT, packaged adventures you can run, easy sharing and categorizing of user content, and even features to allow cooperatively developed settings and etc. There could even be 'pay events' or at least special online promo games and whatnot with popular DMs, etc. I think a community like that which was really advanced COULD compete with MMOs etc. There's no way that the sort of generic automated content that exists in MMOs can ever give you the same sort of game that a custom made human DMed game can. There are trade-offs of course, but then if a game like D&D had such a VTT, an MMO, and a CRPG and the ability to move content from one to another, then you start to see a future that would be pretty cool.

The real question is does anyone actually have the money to make it happen and can they make a good enough business case for it to get it done? Maybe, maybe not. Again, WotC is probably the only organization that is even close to plausibly doing that. Even if they could get the funding one has to ask if they could actually execute. It wouldn't be an easy project, and more projects fail than succeed. We can dream though! ;)
 

RyanD

Adventurer
Many replies!

Cergorach said:
What would you designate as an "acquisition engine" besides a starter box?

The brand team under my leadership from 98-2000 developed a comprehensive plan to bring new players in the hobby. This plan was backed by data we received in consultation with a specialist in child developmental psychology. It had 4 main components.

The first was a series of simple games for kids 6-8 years old to introduce them to the idea of RPGs. The only game that was ever produced was the Pokemon Jr. Adventure Game, which has the distinction of being the best-selling TRPG of all time (on release).

The second was a series of games for kids 9-12 years old that were to be based on various popular brands. We had a Pokemon game in development (essentially finished) and a Harry Potter RPG in development (partially finished) before terminating this project due to licensing issues.

The third was a more traditional boxed introductory product for both D&D and Star Wars. The goal was something that could be sold in mass market toystores, targeted kids 12-14 years of age, and would cost less than $20. The 3rd Edition Intro box was the first of these products, though never got more evolution over time as was intended.

The fourth were a series of one and two book RPG series linked to popular licenses like Wheel of Time (which got produced) and Dune (which didn't). The plan was to have a very broad, but shallow net of RPGs that we could use to target selected groups of fans with a tailored offering. None of the expected development was done on these products either.

While we left behind a very detailed 10 year plan for the RPG business, those who followed after our team chose not to use that plan.

This was in 2000. I would not use this plan now. My plan now would be a series of iOS apps that were interactive and could be used solo as well as in groups. I would never plan on selling these kids physical products but would instead get them into a microtransaction based, repeat purchase model business that would scale with their interest levels and age and eventually lead to a whole ecosystem of RPG products driven via digital technology (not VTT, not MMO).

JoeGKushner said:
IN terms of collapse of retailers (hell, I thought Borders was finished), where does Amazon fall? How many retail stores is one Amazon worth?

It's effectively worth nothing in terms of opportunity to grow the market. Every sale earned at Amazon could be earned instead by Wizards if they chose to do more direct marketing (and probably more than that since they'd be doing much more than Amazon does). Amazon is primarily a convenience reseller of hobby gaming products for those who lack other access or who wish to obtain the discounts offered. While Amazon tries mightily to induce you to buy things other than that which brought you to the site in the first place, I strongly doubt that it works well for lines like RPGs. At best, it may induce someone to notice a niche RPG that they were not otherwise aware of and give it a chance, but I can't see many people being shown D&D as an offer and suddenly deciding to buy it without prior intent.

In terms of volume, it's probably 10-20 quality FLGS worth of product.

JoeGKushner said:
How does that handle things like the DDI with a constant stream of revenue that allows instant data mining on an unprecedented scale for WoTC or the subscription model that Paizo is using with the free PDF for those who subscribe?

DDI is a great way to monetize D&D fans, especially those who don't intend to buy any physical product. I'm certain that Wizards is reasonably pleased with the income, but I'm also reasonably sure its far less than forecast when it was pitched to Hasbro. Not having DDI up and running with the release of 4e and not directly tying 4e to DDI were both strategic mistakes that I'm sure they recognize and would have addressed if at all possible.

Paizo's situation is a bit different, since they're not (yet) adding a lot of added value to the books they sell via the subscription process, they're just offering a tremendous amount of convenience and a great community. Still, having that revenue flow direct to the publisher without all the middlemen makes those books vastly more profitable on a per-unit basis than anything Paizo sells through the distribution channels. It's a great system for both buyer and seller and from what I can tell, people really like it. I'm certain Paizo will keep adding bells and whistles so that eventually the value proposition will be very hard to ignore. :)

TheFindus said:
I am not sure, though, that this was such a wise business decision for WotC back then, because I think it is bad for a company that wants to keep selling stuff in the future to create a product that can go on forever.

It was already obvious in 1999 that eBay and Craigslist meant that the genie was already out of that bottle. Easy access to 1e and 2e product was going to be a mass-market phenomenon, no matter what Wizards did.

I believed then, and believe now, that the only thing uniquely valuable in a go-forward basis to Wizards of the Coast is the Dungeons & Dragons brand. Wizards is the only company that can put that brand on a book and sell it. And if managed correctly, that brand alone should allow Wizards to charge a price premium -- even against people selling the exact same content under a (lesser) brand identity.

The game rules aren't valuable. The brand equity is the value, connected to the huge social network of folks who want to tap that equity.

Let me give you an example. You could easily make your own cola. You could make it taste exactly like Coke (the "secret recipe" isn't that hard to find, just Google it). You can't sell it in any meaningful commercial volume. The reason isn't the contents inside the can, it's the memories and emotions conjured up by someone drinking something they know as "coke" (which is why the "New Coke" thing failed too - it was too new and didn't trigger those memories and emotions). The ability to use that red & white can and call the product "Coke" or "Coca-Cola" is all the value in the whole product.

That's what D&D is. And just like New Coke, if you put something in a book and call it D&D, and it doesn't generate those emotions and memories in your target audience, they won't buy it (or at least they won't buy enough of it to hit your sales goals). (Please don't take me as saying 4e is New Coke either -- that's extending this analogy past the point I want to take it.)


Mark CMG said:
May I ask how this info was gathered, please?
(in response to my citation of the number of FLGS left in the North American market).

Yes, certainly. I was paid by a client while I ran my consulting business to reach out to as many such stores as could be located. To build the necessary database I compiled information from SIC codes and from on-line yellow pages and by doing state by state searches of business licenses. I added in the retail lists I had been keeping for years for my own businesses, as well as contacts screen scraped from many publisher sites. I think GAMA may have distributed a retailer list after one of the GTS shows (but I honestly don't remember at this point). Then I hired an outsourced firm overseas to call all of the phone numbers we were able to generate and we had our outsourcers ask the people who answered a series of simple questions to see if they were brick & mortar stores and if they sold hobby game products beyond just D&D and Magic. Given the time that has passed since that work was performed (more than 5 years) I'm saying the number is likely 750 FLGS +/- 250.

_NewbieDM_ said:
There is a market out there for kids and rpg's... Parents that roleplay *want* to teach their kids about the hobby and play with them, but complex games with 160 pages worth of rules isn't the way.

I dont get why the "industry" doesnt see this. Boggles my mind.

It's hard to write for new players. Most people in the industry have never done it. They write for players assumed to know a lot about RPGs (even when they think they're writing for new players.) They also have never written for kids. Wanna see something interesting? Find a kid who hasn't played many games and ask them to "draw a hand of cards". If there's paper and pencil nearby, you'll likely get a funny illustration. We take so much terminology for granted.

It's also not career enhancing. For the most part, nobody wins an Orgins award or gets noticed by other publishers for working on intro products. By and large, its the flashy top-end game stuff that builds your industry cred. Most people in the industry, if given the choice, will work on something "fun" rather than an intro box.

They usually don't make much money. At best, your intro product is going to have a lower margin than your core books. Especially if you sell it in a box, and sell it at a price that's competitive with the other stuff its on the toy store shelves with - like $9.99 Monopoly. At worst, you might actually lose money on each unit, which means that people who don't understand it are likely to cancel it because viewed in isolation, it's a loser.

OpsKT said:
Much stuff edited for brevity

Not gonna go into all that in detail - not constructive. Some quick summary responses: The senior leadership at White Wolf decided to transition to the MMO field partly because of what they observed when they did nWoD. That was long before I came to the company. They looked for the best partner, had many offers, and chose the company they felt was the best cultural fit and had the right tech and vision to do what they wanted to accomplish with the World of Darkness MMO.

"Flight to Quality" isn't something publishers do. It's something consumers do. And it's an emergent behavior, not a planned or scripted thing. It just happens because most people are rational, and in a shrinking market, the rational thing is to go where most of the other people are going. Once it starts, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. In Pathfinder's case, it's well past the starting point.

You've got a twisted and mistaken idea about the people who make RPGs (D&D, Pathfinder, etc.) if you think they're driven by automatic response to market research and focus groups. By and large they're ad hocing it just like they always have. In fact, I'd bet that by far there's more tension as the market research folks try to convince designers not to do something than there is effort expended trying to get them to do something based on research. It's a hair pulling experience to convince a designer who knows they're right about something that the data shows they aren't.

By and large these are creative folks (intelligent, creative folks) who are trying their best to make stuff that will sell. They rarely, if ever, make something just because they're told to do it - and even when they do, they usually have enough pride in their work to try and make it awesome. Behind 99.99% of every RPG product you've ever purchased is one or more people who had a burning passion about the product and got it through all stages of approvals and development before it landed on your bookshelf.

OpsKT said:
Perhaps you have forgotten things like White Wolf's poor taste attempt to market Exalted 2nd edition with the 'Graduate your Game' promotion, done during Mr. Dancey's time at White Wolf/CCP no less?

Fair enough - it was done by my marketing department. It's only fair that I take the shot for it. It was in bad taste, I wish it hadn't been done, and if I had the chance to do it over again, I'd have intervened to stop it if I had the chance to do so.

Hussar said:
The one thing that OGL supporters have never been able to answer though is how you can have a 4e OGL and a DDI subscription base exist side by side.

What? That's easy!

The DDI should not be a hypertext version of the rules. That should be free anyway. DDI should be tools to help you manage your game and your characters. It should be editorial content to help you enjoy your game session more. It should be lore and backstory for campaign settings. It should be a library of content not published in books that you can access for a small fee - stuff that's got too small an audience to be worth printing, but that YOU might find really helpful (like for example a few dozen more Fey creatures).

DDI should also be a community organizing tool that helps you find groups, form groups, and gather groups into larger groups so that folks have a sense of a real-world social network.

DDI should also be a place for playtesting and feedback, where the designers can get immediate and real-world input on the work they're doing.

And obviously it should be a portal to content: All the content that TSR/Wizards has ever published (and that they have rights to) should be available for a reasonable fee.

Why can't I browse a list of monsters (thousands and thousands), select any number I wish, and have a POD version of a Monster Manual custom built to my specifications sent to me (electronically or in print)? Why can't I build my own spell books for my campaign from a list of spells (thousands and thousands) and do the same?

Wizards has all the data necessary to enable a whole new way of formatting the game - customized directly for YOU, as opposed to generically. DDI could be the portal to that.

The material released as Open Game Content is just the tip of the iceberg of value that Wizards controls.
 

Argyle King

Legend
not sure if this will add anything, but just a thought....

I completely credit the Dragonlance novels with getting me into roleplaying games. At the time, I had no concept of what D&D or rpgs were. At the time, I was a kid who saw some cool looking books on a teacher's shelf. I asked to borrow them and loved them. At the back of the book I found an advertisement for D&D.

Unfortunately, I never did get to buy D&D (I think it would have been 2nd edition at the time) because the same day I saved enough money from mowing lawns and doing choirs to buy the game was the same day Toys'R'Us told me they could no longer carry D&D due to complaints from parents. It would be years later when I played Rifts as my first rpg experience, and a year or so after that until I played D&D for the first time, but the fact is that I would have never made any effort to seek the game out had it not been for those books sparking my interest.

While the mediums may have changed, I think there are still probably kids somewhere today who have seen a book or a tv show or something else and have their interests sparked. I wouldn't be surprised to find there are people playing WoW thinking,"wouldn't it be cool if there was more to the game than DPS, raids, and collecting squirrel skins?" There might be someone playing Skyrim for the first time and being amazed at how in depth you can get involved with the world and some of the customization options to make your character your own; enjoying a non-linear experience.

As I've said elsewhere, I believe society as a whole today is more open to rpg elements than they have been in a long time. Many modern video games have character customization utilities, Facebook has plenty of games based around the idea of building your own unique farm or virtual apartment; things such as Harry Potter, the movies based on Tolkien's works, and the plethora of comic book movies are fresh in the collective minds of the world we live in. Story telling is one of the oldest human traditions; even cave men painted on walls and told stories around the camp fire.

So why is the industry doomed? I don't understand the mindset of the industry and the hobby dying. Not only does the rpg hobby hold dear some of the ideals which one of humanity's oldest traditions is based around, but it also has ties to many of the forms of entertainment which are popular today. I think too often we fall into the mindset of being afraid to introduce people to the game because we think others will find it strange or call us dorks or whatever. You'd be surprised how open people are to playing if approached the right way.

Likewise, I see a lot of posts which seem to indicate new players having an inability to understand things. I myself at times buy into the idea of certain games being too complex. However, I find myself being proven wrong quite often when I do buy into the idea. I was pretty surprised to find that my 3 old (he'll be 4 in February) has a pretty good idea about how the games I play work from watching when I have people over to game.

He's still learning to count and read, so -obviously- he does not have the understanding that would come with reading the books and being able to do some of the more complex math, but, at the same time, I was amazed at how well he understood the concept of what a rpg was. His terminology is different than what mine is due to his age, but he seems to get it. (After he had shown interest, I have used dice and other game related things to help teach him to count and do some basic math.)

I'm not really sure where I was going with any of this. I suppose part of what I'm getting at is the rpg community seems to want to attract people to the hobby so as to maintain the health of the hobby. However, quite often, I find that we create assumptions and/or barriers to keep people away.

I'm still not quite sure what my point with the books was though. I guess that I was introduced to D&D and rpgs in a way that did not require me being in a game store, and in a way which did not require me to already be part of the target audience. That was at a time when society was actively trying to ban the game. Today, there are indications that society has embraced some of the concepts of rpgs and the immersive entertainment experience. So why does it seem as though there's such a willingness to throw in the towel now?

I don't buy the doomsday scenario. If it happens, I do not believe it will be because the market is not there. I believe it will be because of the currently established industry leaders not engaging the market with enough proficiency to survive.
 

Excellent stuff, Mr. Dancey. You have plenty of ideas that I think ought to be tried. But if the will does exist to try it, does WotC have the money and manpower?
 

GregoryOatmeal

First Post
GregoryOatmeal I will check out HeroQuest, albeit it is a boardgame.

I'm searching for an RPG where my daughter can play a princess, or my son a mechanic that can fix any car. Or they can be both bay dragons who are looking for a magical fruit. Whatever can be the basis of a good story. And it don't have to involve combat or slaying of monsters.
It is technically a board game and features no rping, but if you've played RPGs it's really intuitive to use dungeon tiles/gaming mats/incorporate miniatures/have NPCs and monsters negotiate and talk with the PCs. So while it technically includes a board I just threw it out and played it like D&D. It would probably be really hard to play without some form of minis and a grid.

I can't help you with a game for being a mechanic or a princess...best of luck to you.
 

Alphastream

Adventurer
You know, if the rpg industry is having troubles getting newer players, well, i blame them for it. How many are truly trying to cater to kids, for example? Not many, if any.

There is clearly a demographic of parents bringing up their kids on D&D, but it is relatively new. Gen Con has been catering to it for two years (with their Kids Alley or whatever they call it in the dealer's room, as well as programming) and you can see the success. You also see schools bringing scores of kids in for mini painting competitions outside Sagamore, parents in Sagamore doing learn to play, D&D board games, and Red Box.

But, realistically, it is because there is very little experience with selling to young children. You also have the 80's mothers against D&D issue that highlights how there can be legal ramifications if you get it wrong. The column by Uri that was canceled is further indication of the cost of getting it wrong. Rpgkids is great (it really is!), but to fully publish a D&D for kids by a major company... that takes planning and resources that takes away from other areas. Worth it? I think so, but it isn't a no-brainer... there really are issues to consider and reasons to focus on a slightly less young demographic.

Along those lines, Encounters has done very well with kids that are 9 and up. I've seen real success there from the program by being accessible to all casual players. They don't lose anything (other than the hardcore, but the program isn't for them) and aren't just creating something for kids. Again, I'm all for D&D for kids (I created a version myself), but there are valid reasons for WotC and other RPGs to be cautious and aim for older players.

All of that said, I disagree with Ryan Dancey that our demographic is forever aging. I felt that way back in 2008, but 4E really has brought in diversity. I see much greater gender and age diversity at tables. I also see much more recognition. These are geek times and we are in a great position to bring increasingly young audiences to D&D. Sure, MMOs are huge, but both parents and kids want other alternatives. I question the idea that we have to abandon or shrink the tabletop, especially in an era where board games have recently been strong. Yes, there are challenges, but there are many reasons why RPGs can grow.
 
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GreyLord

Legend
I believed then, and believe now, that the only thing uniquely valuable in a go-forward basis to Wizards of the Coast is the Dungeons & Dragons brand. Wizards is the only company that can put that brand on a book and sell it. And if managed correctly, that brand alone should allow Wizards to charge a price premium -- even against people selling the exact same content under a (lesser) brand identity.

The game rules aren't valuable. The brand equity is the value, connected to the huge social network of folks who want to tap that equity.

I disagree. Take for example your Coke idea...well another company DOES sell coke products and has been rather successful...even with Coca Cola still the best selling drink out there. Pepsi does pretty darn well...and though Americans and a few others will swear about the difference of taste between Pepsi and Cola (and there are slight differences) to those who don't drink them regularly...they sure taste very similar. The same could go for differences between Mug rootbeer, A&W Rootbeer, or Big K rootbeer. How about Sprite and 7-Up.

Entertainment has this all the time. Think about how movie studios copy each other...many times you can see a movie and say...Hey, this is simply a rip off of another movie!

Sometimes they are competing and the one who has the ripoff brings the movie to the theater sooner then the original, other times the themes of movies are so similar as to be apparant that they are copies of the same theme though different characters and movies (Dante's peak/Volcano, Armageddon/Deep Impact, Rocky/Real Steel).

In electronics this gets even more nefarious...unless you are an expert into certain electronics...how big are the actual differences in two flat screen T.V.'s with the apparant same additions and conveniences, but two different brands going to appear to you?

Take Video games as another...how big is the difference between Battlefield 3 for Xbox 360 and Battlefield 3 for Playstation 3?

People buy rebranding all the time with RPGs in electronica...a recent one that comes to mind would be the Wizardry series...though it has a similar release on the Nintendo DS as Etrian Odyssey and PSP as Class of Heroes. All different games but VERY reminescent of the original.

Even better, some products (like furniture and sometimes food items) really ARE the same product as predecessors of another brand in some cases, but not by the same company.

The first problem WotC made I think was tossing away the entire heritage in favor of their OWN game.

Brand isn't all there is too it. By tossing the older AD&D and releasing WotC's D20 version of D&D, they set a precedence of being able to do away with an old rule system and replace it with something different.

This was basically almost exactly the same model followed by WotC/Hasbro with the release of 4e. Those who didn't like it need only see the example set less then a decade prior with 3e.

Of course they didn't have Mr. Dancy (and some particularly notable allies in key places) to keep the manianical money grubbers back, so instead of the OGL and some other items that helped with 3e, it was released to a much starker and sterner control of the system when 4e was released (seen soon after with the taking back of PDFs, the GSL which was a miracle it even saw the light of day, and followed up with the ensuring of the online only DDi).

At the same time you have the rise of the Retro movement which if they weren't all fighting over the same scraps (D&D and AD&D, even different editions of 1e and 2e AD&D, and multiple D&D editions...were HIGHLY compatible with each other and in that effect could be seen as basically the same game/same audience) probably could be doing some pretty serious financials.

As it is, most of those financials are hidden as a majority of those transactions and downloads are from ONLINE rather than a more measurable hardcopy offline.

So I think that in fact, if given a single solitary player that released all of the AD&D/D&D materials from 2e on back...that they COULD be successful.

In fact, in direct relation to WotC...look at Paizo now...and in effect that's exactly what they are doing with the 3.X game....just with their revision of it.

Game rules ARE important...and it's not necessarily the brand.

IMO of course.

PS: Then again...as long as the business makes money...that's probably whats important in the end.
 

GregoryOatmeal

First Post
Sigh...
...if only people educated themselves BEFORE they formed their opinion.
That's not an attack on you, MR. Oatmeal....but an attack on the phenomenon of "I disagree...therefore it must be so!"
The only thing I disagreed with was your statement that Pathfinder wouldn't exist. My experiences suggested PF would exist and be doing pretty well (albeit not as well) if 4E supported all of the old settings. But we really can't do much more than speculate.

"Why doesn't DL/RL material exist for PF?" was a question, not an opinion. Why did you think I was presenting my question trying to obtain information I clearly didn't know as something I was right about? I had no idea WOTC reacquired those brands - I just kept seeing third party logos on those old books and people around me kept saying third parties owned them. I'm not inclined to research facts I don't know that I don't know. And even then if you google "WOTC acquires Dragonlance brand" or "Ravenloft intellectual property owners" you still don't get any press releases or definitive answers, so frankly that's some pretty obscure information to expect someone to know.

And I know WOTC published some Ravenloft stuff...I was incorrectly told they had a limited license to utilize a few aspects of Dragonlance and recreations of the original Ravenloft module.
 

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