Time Based XP Rewards

By an large, I do not disagree with the what is being said either. I think DC did not even need to mention TBX awards and ask them to be removed from character sheets. It was not the intent of policy that was in question, perhaps. Just the wording of things.

Asking a DM to calculate TBX/TBG after every encounter is not necessary. It will be calculated and double-check to determine when a character ACTUALLY levels up because the rates change. This is a meticulous bookkeeping issue and will be done and Judge approved.

The only reason we are debating this at all is because players are wanting to use it mid-adventure (leveling up or spending it). So perhaps the focus was not originally in that direction, but that is where the controversy lies.

As a DM I plan and adjust things mid-adventure, so nit-picking about the effects of 1-2 characters on the APL is not an issue of discussion for me personally. Also, I whole heartily understand the issue of leveling up without getting shopping done to get appropriate gear. I am not complaining about Mowgli's game, the adventure is what it is, and it was not designed to have characters jumping from 1st level to 4th in the original source material.

That issue is something the Judge and DM should discuss and work out during the approval process. What most of you all do not know, is that DC and I discussed his adventure off-line quite a bit, after the participating players were known. Pretty much all of them need roughly the same ballpark XP to reach their next level. The flow and encounters are set up for no one advancing, thus the need to calculate and apply TBX/TBG before the end is not really necessary.

Theoretically, leveling up 1-2 characters might not make a difference mechanically to APL vs. CR, but it can alter an encounter's true challenge. This is the art of encounter design. Too easy and it is not much fun, too hard it is not much fun. Believe it or not, 1-2 characters leveling can alter that.

However, I have a BIG problem when people start throwing out words like "should" when telling DMs what to do in their own games.

DMing is hard work and takes significant effort, particularly compared to most players that post one sentence IC half the time. Anything you do that discourages them or turns them off is like shooting yourself in the foot. You want someone to do more work, then you better phrase it better and be nicer in your asking. Upset them in the least (take note, SK ) and all you do is encourage them to not bother posting that day or deciding to not run another one. Frankly, I think this is something that some of the players in DC's game might want to consider. You want DMs to develop and get better, you gotta NURTURE them, not argue and try to dictate to them.

But that was my "nice voice".

Satin Knights said:

But that was my "nice voice".

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Uh, huh.

Satin Knights said:

But that was my "nice voice".

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You have a "nice voice"?

perrinmiller said:

Asking a DM to calculate TBX/TBG after every encounter is not necessary. It will be calculated and double-check to determine when a character ACTUALLY levels up because the rates change. This is a meticulous bookkeeping issue and will be done and Judge approved.

The only reason we are debating this at all is because players are wanting to use it mid-adventure (leveling up or spending it).

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Apparently that's part of what SK is after, but if I wasn't clear before, it's not at all what I was looking to settle when I entered into the discussion.

Eanos is at the bottom of 3rd level in an adventure that's ostensibly balanced to allow for 1st level survivability. In general, I had Eanos join it as a bit of a test drive for him, since I'm new to both archer builds and inquisitors. I never expected him to level; I'm not looking for him to level; I care very little for if he levels in the middle of this adventure.

I'm coming at this thing entirely from the perspective of how it affects my responsibilities / options as a GM. What I've been trying to get straightened out is how TBX works, in two ways:

1) When you can award it

2) How it interacts retroactively vis-a-vis leveling.

I think the 1st question has been answered about the same for everyone: it's awarded when the GM feels there's a decent place to do so. Which is great, because it means my first concern--that I was breaking rules giving it out in my current adventure--is resolved insofar as I'm concerned.

The second point is important to me for this reason (re-quoting):

It will be calculated and double-check to determine when a character ACTUALLY levels up because the rates change. This is a meticulous bookkeeping issue and will be done and Judge approved.

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If I read that right, if a GM isn't keeping up with when leveling 'should' happen via encounter / time xp combined, the end of the adventure will then have to involve an extensive reconstruction of xp awards / time to resolve when a character "would have" leveled had the time xp been doled out along the way to account for increased rates between levels.

That seems like a major headache, and as I said before, seems like a whole lot MORE work for GM and / or judge.

Being new to GMing, I already feel a bit taxed trying to juggle everything. If we're trying to discuss how to encourage people to GM more? Keeping massive math headaches like that out of the way is tops on my list. I should think that would go double for judging an adventure, where the judge might not be interacting with the numbers as often as the GM, and thus have an even harder time with reconstruction.

Qik said:

You have a "nice voice"?

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My "blunt voice" would deal with the situation this way.
***WARNING*** Cover your ears and eyes PM. ***WARNING***

* DC awarded us TXP and TGP.
* PM said no, that can only be done by the judge at the end, unless it is written in the script. Thereby taking away what DC, as the GM, had given the players.
* I didn't like the ruling PM had used, but to "not stir our personal hornet's nest", I let it drop. We squabble over trivial things far too often, and he is the game judge authority in that situation. So, I went with it. My opinion was "It's the GM's decision, not the judge's."
* The adventure is (probably) mislabeled as having a mid-point rest and level intermission.
* JK asked "Is that really the policy?"
* After 10 comments on it I said "I want the policy to be this way instead..."
* Most agreed.
* I looked, but didn't find an original policy anywhere. I must have missed something.
* PM is worried about extra work being pushed on the GM.
* I clarified that one or two characters leveling is not going to generate more work.
* PM still thinks I am trying to push the GMs in to more work.
* "should" I believe is the correct word. In my book it is "do this as default unless you have an overriding reason". In other words, I am using the recommendation form of the word.
* Some people are worried about the "at the end, lets retrace the adventure to count who would have leveled where, and do all the recalculations." That is a non-desired path by most. The revised lists below will likely eliminate the "retrace and recalculate" issue.

So far, nobody has made a mistake, other than the possible mislabeling of the adventure by a cut/paste error, and nobody has done anything wrong.

Oops! DC did make a mistake and gave Arianna the same total XP as Fulgrim. That is just a typo. Not an issue.

SK and PM wind up on the opposite sided of another issue. Nothing new there.

Eh, that was still soft and mild for a "voice".
OK. PM can uncover his ears and eyes now. He is needed as a judge for this next part.

I am trying to get the vague policy, that I couldn't find, changed and hammered out so we can actually put it on the wiki somewhere so the GMs have something to look at and say, "Oh, this is what I should be doing. I can work with that just fine."

So, Issue One: Time based XP and GP awards:
A) Encounter XP is earned at the end of the encounter.
B) Encounter GP is earned at the end of the encounter and only spendable at a GM allowed store visit or after the adventure is over. Loot gets distributed within the party and used as is, or traded for gold or other items at a store visit later.
C) Time based XP is earned daily.
D) Time based GP is earned daily and only spendable at the point the hiring agent that started the adventure pays you, usually the last minute of the adventure. (On the wiki sheet: Character X is due nnn gp as pay at the adventure's completion.)
E) The GM, at his or her discretion, updates the first post of the adventure to list the TXP and TGP awards at a frequency of the GM's choosing.
F) Since it is a simple number multiplication, the player can update his wiki character sheet with the TXP and TGP awards updated to the current day of editing as the player so desires, specifically marking them as TXP and TGP awards earned. In other words, the TXP and TGP can be updated by the player daily, but the GM only has to update when he or she is in the mood.
G) If the player finds he is eligible to level, he PMs the GM to notify the GM that he is eligible for leveling. The GM then, a) checks the numbers, b) responds by PM, or in game, when he can work in the leveling.

I hereby call for a VOTE on Issue One: yes, no, or H) Add this.
I also want to hear non-binding votes from current GMs running adventures who are not judges.

Issue Two: When can the characters level?
1) After a game has finished. (Had to throw in the obvious one here.)
2) Pauses in story to "level up" is up to the GM. Even if the character has earned enough XP to level, it is up to the GM as to when and if it is convenient in the story. The GM should make a good effort at allowing the characters to level at the earliest convenience in the the story line.
3) In the recruiting at the DWI and in the first post of the adventure, the GM should list the leveling plans. These include:
i) The adventure is long enough that characters are expected to level N times and the adventure will likely run Y-Z months.
ii) Breaks for leveling will be done at
a) after the qualifying encounter.
b) after a night's rest.
c) at specific story plot points. There will be # possibilities.
d) none planned.
The highly preferred option is (a) unless there is a plot twist reason as to choose another option. Number crunching shows that unless more than half the party is leveling, APL vs CR is not affected enough to disrupt the script.
iii) Leveling includes gaining HP and spell slots, but the spell slots are treated as if they were left empty.
iv) other GM desired rules or class specific rules.
4) The game judge certifies the numbers at the end of the adventure.
5) The character reviewing judge verifies the numbers in the first and last post of an adventure that the game judge has certified while he is reviewing the character.

I hereby call for a VOTE on Issue Two: yes, no, or 6) Add this.
Again, I also want to hear non-binding votes from current GMs running adventures who are not judges.

I feel that the only ones who are hurt by preventing shopping during an adventure are prepared casters (wizards/alchemists/magus) and those characters that are most gear dependent (fighters/rangers/monks/rogues/magus). Most other classes have some way to boost either their attacks though spells or abilities that having not gone shopping does not really hurt them in the short term.

On the fact of TBX during the middle or the end, I know leveling after key fights has helped the survivability of both games I am in currently (Bloodcove and Crypt.) due to TBX. Because my wizard had access to second level spells, the BBEG of the crypt was disabled almost the entire fight, and did not do any damage because of it.

And while we really did not have access during Bloodcove to get new gear, we had two bards that alternated singing per fight that we had inspire courage every fight we had. We also had the extra damage from Power Attack/Deadly Aim helped put down some of these creatures that would have survived an extra round, and therefore would have dealt more damage. The character selection is a bit odd, but it worked in the end.

Levels are important because they add to our character, and helps improve our understanding of said character.

That being said, being a DM now I understand how much time it takes to do TBX during the middle of the games now, when you already have other responsibilities outside of D&D (shocking I know). While I did do it once, my work now demands more time out of me, which in turn effects the time I spend here DMing.

For Audra, I checked every Monday of the Expansion campaign to see how I was doing on XP from encounters, used the tables provided in the Group to figure out the points for days from when we had started or I had last counted and when I started getting close, I started working on the basic items:

Making sure I knew how my HP worked (Audra is actually rolled, shocker)

Making sure that if I were IC, I could explain the placement of most of my skill points, IE did I use the skill during the time these rewards were being used?

If, after that, I had SP left over, I put the ranks in other useful skills for the class

If a feat was involved, looked on up and had it ready to go, so if I had a question I could ask the GM (poor SS21 )

I took note of the time GP award, but in my mind, that was money received once the task was completed, and I limited my purchasing In Adventure to only the money I could account from minor in game awards/treasure and what I had left from starting. It was, to me, bonus money at the end of the adventure for a job well done.

As far as the txp went, I have to agree that having it awarded as you go, so that you level mid adventure makes the most sense. If a GM has a problem with letting a leveling character go whole hog on things, then perhaps a short term limit to rolling XP until a reasonable IC time for being able to purchase items and train skills avails itself. Though, as I said, as a player, I tend to concentrate on what the character uses when applying mid adventure ranks.

Just my 2 slugs worth. Can I get my gumball now?

Satin Knights¹ and Systole's² posts reflect my opinions/feelings on this subject and are stated much more succinctly that I could have done so I won't add much more to that discussion.

[MENTION=29558]Mowgli[/MENTION] has created an Excel spreadsheet that helps in planning/calculating TBX immensely. If he could share that somehow it would ease that bit of work for DMs.

Satin Knights said:

So, Issue One: Time based XP and GP awards:
A) Encounter XP is earned at the end of the encounter.
B) Encounter GP is earned at the end of the encounter and only spendable at a GM allowed store visit or after the adventure is over. Loot gets distributed within the party and used as is, or traded for gold or other items at a store visit later.
C) Time based XP is earned daily.
D) Time based GP is earned daily and only spendable at the point the hiring agent that started the adventure pays you, usually the last minute of the adventure. (On the wiki sheet: Character X is due nnn gp as pay at the adventure's completion.)
E) The GM, at his or her discretion, updates the first post of the adventure to list the TXP and TGP awards at a frequency of the GM's choosing.
F) Since it is a simple number multiplication, the player can update his wiki character sheet with the TXP and TGP awards updated to the current day of editing as the player so desires, specifically marking them as TXP and TGP awards earned. In other words, the TXP and TGP can be updated by the player daily, but the GM only has to update when he or she is in the mood.
G) If the player finds he is eligible to level, he PMs the GM to notify the GM that he is eligible for leveling. The GM then, a) checks the numbers, b) responds by PM, or in game, when he can work in the leveling.

I hereby call for a VOTE on Issue One: yes, no, or H) Add this.

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YES

Satin Knights said:

Issue Two: When can the characters level?
1) After a game has finished. (Had to throw in the obvious one here.)
2) Pauses in story to "level up" is up to the GM. Even if the character has earned enough XP to level, it is up to the GM as to when and if it is convenient in the story. The GM should make a good effort at allowing the characters to level at the earliest convenience in the the story line.
3) In the recruiting at the DWI and in the first post of the adventure, the GM should list the leveling plans. These include:
i) The adventure is long enough that characters are expected to level N times and the adventure will likely run Y-Z months.
ii) Breaks for leveling will be done at
a) after the qualifying encounter.
b) after a night's rest.
c) at specific story plot points. There will be # possibilities.
d) none planned.
The highly preferred option is (a) unless there is a plot twist reason as to choose another option. Number crunching shows that unless more than half the party is leveling, APL vs CR is not affected enough to disrupt the script.
iii) Leveling includes gaining HP and spell slots, but the spell slots are treated as if they were left empty.
iv) other GM desired rules or class specific rules.
4) The game judge certifies the numbers at the end of the adventure.
5) The character reviewing judge verifies the numbers in the first and last post of an adventure that the game judge has certified while he is reviewing the character.

I hereby call for a VOTE on Issue Two: yes, no, or 6) Add this.

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YES, with the exception of those parts highlighted - IMO, these are your preferences SK, and should be left out of official rulings. The stipulation that leveling conditions will be published in the first adventure post will allow the potential adventurers to decide if they want to participate based on what the GM decides.

GlassEye said:

[MENTION=29558]Mowgli[/MENTION] has created an Excel spreadsheet that helps in planning/calculating TBX immensely. If he could share that somehow it would ease that bit of work for DMs.

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I'm happy to share! Sadly it's an .xlsx (Excel 2007?) file, which isn't supported by ENWorld's attachment function, and it makes use of protected cells so I can't put it up on Google Docs. Anyone who wants the sheet can PM me their e-mail address and I'll send you a copy.