Vancian? Why can't we let it go?

I like things that work. I think we all do.

So, what I"m interested in, is not arguments of (well it's always been there, so lets keep it) but why it works better than another option. I can't think of one. I've read other threads, the number 1 answer

In my old gruffy man voice
"It's always been there, since i was a kid, i struggled to learn Vancian and so did my forefather and it is not dungeons and dragons without it, especially if you are walking up hill in school in 5 feet of snow".

1. Is it easy to teach (if you can't teach a game, it won't grow, and if it doesn't grow 5e will be the last edition we play under the hasbro name)

If most new player's main source of "fantasy" right now, is video games and computer games, the idea of only being able to cast this many of this type of spell a day is fairly foreign.. After all, they enjoy playing fantasy games to play wizards and priests. In those games they choose spells for them and some meter of some type eventually runs out when they can't cast more. It's fairly simple. The more powerful a spell, the greater it's cost.

This is my biggest argument. I am so tired of teaching D and D through the fighter, and seeing folk just say screw this, if magic is that difficult then i'll play video games.

2. It limits the option of the game
For some reason unknown to anyone, a powerful wizard can still cast 4 3rd level huge fireballs from the sky, but can't muster a simple scorching ray. This goes beyond a simulaist argument. This is absurdity. It can't be a difference in material components, I"d think a small fireball would require less than a big fireball.

3. It creates the 1 hour study guy, 15 minute adventurer
I"m all for a study period and having prepared spells and spells in waiting. But once their over its over. What if it was a tough day. Why is there no way for me to just study again. Same argument as above, Wait i didnt remember a powerful fireball spell, so i can memorize that, but i can't memorize another scorching ray.

4. The Wizard, the bookkeeper
You have up to 9 extra resources to keep track of depending on your level and these fluctuate every morning.

I just can't think of a single benefit over a spell point, or exhaustion or skill roll system. So outside of "it's always been there" what are the benefits over anything else.

I hate it, it's like teaching kids how to play video games using an atari.

I believe, so long as we have the Vancian system, so long as the game will always lag behind in popularity and ease of use.

DonTadow said:

If most new player's main source of "fantasy" right now, is video games and computer games, the idea of only being able to cast this many of this type of spell a day is fairly foreign.. After all, they enjoy playing fantasy games to play wizards and priests. In those games they choose spells for them and some meter of some type eventually runs out when they can't cast more. It's fairly simple. The more powerful a spell, the greater it's cost.

Click to expand...

If I say "mana" or "spell points" then *everyone* gets it, from my gamer friends to their pre-teen children. It's universal and obvious.

Spell memorization is ... well, let's just say it is neither.

As an option for 'advanced' players, I we should have a Vancian class. But please consider a mana-using spellcaster as the default, if only to make the game more accessible for beginning players.

Not sure how you could have a unity edition that appeals to the bulk of fans of all editions without a system informed by the Vancian concepts.

The biggest issue with Vancian is not the how it works the fire and forget. I have introduced the game to a young people coming from videos games and they have no issue understanding the concept.

The issue comes in on picking what spells to memorize each day a lot of them don't like that.

I have also seen the same complaint with sorcerers, people being overwhelmed with what spells to take at creation. Also not knowing when to use a spell because they worry about running out of them.

I have found that for a lot of newbies who want to play a magical type character the Warlock works best. It is easy to play you get to fire a blast every round and later add some kind of spell abilities to it.

I'd prefer they keep Vancian spellcasting as the default. I've played mana and exhaustion systems, and they have their own problems.

Mana and exhaustion systems both have the disadvantage that repeatable abilities must, by necessity, be less powerful than limited use ones. Let's take, for instance, the Sleep spell. Over nearly every edition of D&D, the Sleep spell has been one of the go to nukes of the low level wizards arsenal. It could be that powerful because the wizard wasn't going to throw it out ever encounter. Most encounters he was standing in the back, not doing much. But when he did, clear the decks!

In a mana point, or exhaustion system, you couldn't have spells as powerful as Sleep. Heck, even in games like 4e, where wizards had lots of abilities to use an array of effects every round, the Sleep spell started to feel a bit too powerful, because the wizard wasn't paying an opportunity cost for it.

So you have basically two options, reliable, yet mediocre effects, or limited, but spectacular ones.

Please note, 3rd edition was hardly Vancian, as magic became effectively unlimited very quickly, through the ease of magic item creation. Thus you had the worst of both worlds, powerful, spectacular magic, effectively unlimited...which overshadowed the rest of the gameworld.

I can understand people not liking it - but is it really that confusing?

Yes, it's different than what video games use now, but funny enough, a lot of early video games used the Vancian system (Final Fantasy and various Infocom games, IIRC).

And the 15 minute adventuring day is really a product of metagaming (not behavior by real people) as well as bad adventure design.

Combats should not require the MU to use up all his spells in one encounter. They would be saved for the really special ones.

Beyond that, at least in early AD&D/D&D, spell choice was rather limited. A MU might only know a handful of spells, so it's not like they was a lot of angst over what to pick.

Elf Witch said:

I have found that for a lot of newbies who want to play a magical type character the Warlock works best. It is easy to play you get to fire a blast every round and later add some kind of spell abilities to it.

Click to expand...

They definitely had their flaws, but I rather liked the concept of sort-of specialist-wizard-in-a-box classes that showed up in 3.5 expansions (warmage, beguiller, dread necromancer, artificer) -- where you cast like a sorcerer and got every spell on your list.

To address the complexity issue, I'd like to see the number of spells included in the core game cut way back, the number of spell slots a wizard has cut back (to a little more than number of spells equal to level). bread and butter spells like detect magic and read magic turned into abilities, an array of cantrips that work as powers, and a handful of spells that provide a reliable at will power all day long.

For instance, a 1st level wizard might be able to read and detect magic with an ability check, the ability to create light and use mage hand, and access to 1 spell plus his intelligence bonus (say 3 or 4 spells). One of the spells, Magic Missile, rather than being a one off attack spell, grants him the ability to make a range attack for 1d6+int bonus damage once a round (increasing at 6th level or so).

Spells memorized could also provide small bonuses. Perhaps having Charm Person memorized gives you a bonus to reaction checks/diplomacy rolls, that goes away when you've cast the spell.

DonTadow said:

I can't think of one....I just can't think of a single benefit over a spell point, or exhaustion or skill roll system.

Click to expand...

But rather than engaging in a long debate with you, I'd suggest you give up D&D completely for about 10 years and go play a bunch of other systems. Then we can have this discussion in a more productive way.

I believe, so long as we have the Vancian system, so long as the game will always lag behind in popularity and ease of use.

Click to expand...

Lag behind what, exactly?

If most new player's main source of "fantasy" right now, is video games and computer games, the idea of only being able to cast this many of this type of spell a day is fairly foreign.. After all, they enjoy playing fantasy games to play wizards and priests. In those games they choose spells for them and some meter of some type eventually runs out when they can't cast more. It's fairly simple. The more powerful a spell, the greater it's cost.

Click to expand...

Or they are are familiar with a cool down system, in which you have a list of spells which you may cast and then after a certain period you can cast them again. Hmmmm...

I've noticed some players have a problem waiting until the next day to get spells replenished while simultaneously not being able to have their characters in-game not do much until the next day even if that means just telling the GM that they are laying low or hanging out.