Seminar Transcript - Charting the Course: An Edition for all Editions

No Big Deal

First Post
As for orcs? I'm of the belief that being stabbed in the face with a greatsword should be just as much of a problem for the king of the castle as it is for the lowly peasant. I'm also someone who prefers that heroes lead armies rather than heroes who fight armies.

I'm cool with a skilled hero (Conan) besting several foes in combat. I'm cool with using situational awareness and good tactics (300 Spartans) to defeat overwhelming odds. I'm even fine with stretching reality a little bit to allow what I suppose you could call a 'Hollywood sense of realism.' However, I'm not a huge fan of one lone swordsman single-handedly defeating an entire army using super uber cool wire-fu* moves, his Mr. T starter kit of magical jewelry, and his golf bag of magical weapons.

Here's the thing. Those aren't high level play. The king isn't "high level" he's an aristocrat. If your going to have "Go to Hell/The Abyss/Limbo to bargain for someone's soul" (which is totally a thing you should be able to do) your problems should not be orcs. Yes orcs are iconic, but so are brutal kingdom burning dragons, cunning demonic archdukes, and alien aboleth mage-princes.

Conan and 300 are (in 3.5 terms) E6 campaigns. Yes you should be able to play a game that starts at "one step above Joe the Dirt Farmer" and ends at "king of Sparta" but that should NOT be the core assumptions of the game. Even 4e doesn't assume that. If the new edition's goal is to be inclusive, why is one of its core assumptions that you don't reach a point where your starting enemies aren't a threat?

Because I'm an optimist and there are things to like about every edition of D&D, including (and, for me, at least, especially) 4e.

You know, I'm starting to think that if you hate any edition of D&D (and recognizing flaws is not the same as hate), then 5e will not be for you.

Here's the thing: I don't hate 4e. Do I think its not great? Yes. Do I think it has fundamental flaws? Yes. Do I think its boring? Sure. But I think those things about 3.5 too. I'm still playing that. Why? because for all its flaws, it starts at a better place than 4e does.
 

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Kurtomatic

First Post
So, I'm curious how this is done in a way which is different than what is already being done with some of the toolkit systems.

...

Is the D&D 5E model similar to that (in theory) or different? I'm curious how such an approach can be made in such a way to keep the core essence and feel of D&D. I'm also curious how such an approach can make itself different enough to make me choose it over one of the other modular games.
It's a really good question, and I don't play a game designer on TV (much less in RL), so I probably won't do a very good job of guessing what they're up to. So take this with the same giant grain of salt you're already using for all the other threads in this forum. ;)

The GURPS comparison is apt, though. That style of modularity intended to provide completely different games using the same mechanics. Next is trying to give you the same game with different mechanics, so to speak.

Let's try that another way. GURPS/Hero/Etc extends the same game rules to implement many different genres, which can each be described as having it own language. GURPS/Hero/Etc translates each of those various setting tropes to a common set of mechanics. So in theory, a GURPS Traveller imperial marine could head-to-head with a GURPS CthulhuPunk mythos critter because even though their genre languages are completely different, they use the same mechanical underpinnings.

D&D Next is not at all concerned with genre-tripping. D&D is its own genre, and the designers are seeking to create a language (lexicon) that distills the common experience of D&D gameplay. That's why you hear these guys muttering on about "what is a wizard?", and so forth. What are the axioms (invariants) of the D&D experience, and how can we create a dictionary of terms with strict definitions that describe this experience? Once you have the language defined, you can then back-fill with different sets of actual rules (implementation) to taste. In theory, the different flavors of rules will still produce a common D&D experience. In theory.

So what kind of stuff goes in lexicon? Here's a possible example:
Well, the thing is it is one thing to think of the lexicon in terms of things like say keywords or whatnot, but at least as important is what the numbers mean. While in theory you could have different baselines of say hit points, in practice you can't really do that because every other layer is going to have to depend on a hit point meaning something fairly concrete. In other words you can't make a module that provides a certain magic system or combat system unless you know that doing '10 hit points of damage' means a scratch or a killing blow.
That was handly, thanks! ;)

So, I think its safe to say that hit points will definitely show up as an important entry in the lexicon. It's got a have a concrete definition. Even if methods for adding, reducing, and recovering hit points vary across rules modules, as long as they hew to the defined meaning, they can remain compatible to some degree. Words like level, fighter, hit point, spell, turn, etc, are the inflection points where all the parallel D&D universes meet.

That's a lot of ivory tower noodling. In practice, I am sure there will be some amount DM greasing required to make it work smoothly.
 

Thulcondar

First Post
Q: Do you expect one player to have fun with really stripped down rules and another player to have fun with controlling and doing bigger things?
Monte: Running a few playtests, I had at one long term table a guy who hadn't played since 1st editon, a guy who was more 3rd edtion and a guy who was recently in to 4th. The guy who hadn't played in 1st edition didn't want a lot of options. This solidified in my mind, along with the other evidence we've seen, that there are a lot of players who want to have very few options on their character sheet. As a game goes on, that guy might see some of the cool things that other classes are doing and might want to add some of those modular abilities. This is something that is easy to do and change as the character progresses - he can pick up some of those more modular options if he wants after that point.

I've got to say, this makes me a bit antsy. It almost feels like the attitude is that those poor benighted grognards who don't want lots of options when they first roll up their character will be enticed by all the superfunoptioncandy and finally "see the light" and want to get options for their characters once they see what they've been missing.

Plus, what sort of input does the DM have in what sort of options are allowed, I wonder?

Not making any big assumptions based on an off-handed remark in a seminar, but very interested to see what else touches on this aspect of the design.

Joe
Greyhawk Grognard
 


Kurtomatic

First Post
I've got to say, this makes me a bit antsy. It almost feels like the attitude is that those poor benighted grognards who don't want lots of options when they first roll up their character will be enticed by all the superfunoptioncandy and finally "see the light" and want to get options for their characters once they see what they've been missing.
I think the main takeaway from that statement is, player characters won't be locked into just the options used at creation; they can be refactored later for taste. You could just as easily simplify the character after deciding the superfunoptioncandy you picked initially tastes way too sweet. Empty carbs and all that.
 

Wormwood

Adventurer
So why the enthusiasm?

I am enthusiastic because I love D&D. I've played every edition and I love aspects of each.

I am enthusiastic because I believe Wizards when they say they want to bring back the Old-School without throwing out the last 30 years of RPG design. I have a long list of things I would love to see in 5e, but no deal-breakers.

And at the end of the day, I'm enthusiastic because I'd rather be positive than negative. It's a choice.
 

Jeffrey

First Post
Q: In the recent editions it looks like a lot of the player options have been narrowed down to things they can/can't do in the rules. Is this next iteration going to get away from that?
Monte: While having options in the rules is great, we want to open things up so players can get creative and ask to do things that are specifically covered by the rules. We want to empower DMs to with information in the DM guide and others resources to be able to handle those out of the box situations. So basically better gaming through better DM tools and DMing.

Am I reading this wrong (blame it on a bad cold and fever) but shouldn't the word "not" be placed in Monte's reply in the first sentence between "ask to do things that are" and "specifically covered"?

Ow. It hurts to type.
 

That's a lot of ivory tower noodling. In practice, I am sure there will be some amount DM greasing required to make it work smoothly.

Well, in practice yeah. I think there's a degree of flexibility in terms of a given style of play already. You can probably manage to eek out a 'one step from death at every instant' kind of feel and a "we're heroes in the making" feel out of a character that has 15 hit points at level 1. I suspect though that certain specific options aren't going to mix well with some genre, because poison and spells and whatnot are going to need to change based on what you want to do.

While I think there may be a decent amount of common ground about D&D's interpretation of 'wizard', there's still a lot of wiggle room in there and a lot of variety of level of buy-in to what that should be.
 


trancejeremy

Adventurer
Personally, I think 4E had a lot of good ideas which never quite made it into the final product.

As for orcs? I'm of the belief that being stabbed in the face with a greatsword should be just as much of a problem for the king of the castle as it is for the lowly peasant. I'm also someone who prefers that heroes lead armies rather than heroes who fight armies.

I'm cool with a skilled hero (Conan) besting several foes in combat. I'm cool with using situational awareness and good tactics (300 Spartans) to defeat overwhelming odds. I'm even fine with stretching reality a little bit to allow what I suppose you could call a 'Hollywood sense of realism.' However, I'm not a huge fan of one lone swordsman single-handedly defeating an entire army using super uber cool wire-fu* moves, his Mr. T starter kit of magical jewelry, and his golf bag of magical weapons.

*I'm not totally against the concept, but I believe there are times when the unbelievable becomes too unbelievable; unbelievable to the point where it seems silly rather than cool.

Well, I strongly disagree. D&D is not meant to be a realistic simulation*, but heroic fantasy game. Why try to turn it into a game that it's never been (and indeed, expressed and deliberately designed not to be, in the opening of the 1st ed DMG, EGG is proud to call it a "dismal failure" at realistic simulation, and happy that it's a fun game).

While it is extreme, King Arthur was said to singlehandedly have killed 960 men at the battle of Mons Badonicus. I would hate to actually run that in a game, but I think that should be possible at the very, very high end - that's the kind of stuff D&D is meant to emulate, after all.


* Though I doubt that even in a realistic simulation, a highly skilled warrior would allow himself to get stabbed in the face with a greatsword by a neophyte. Sure, maybe by a similarly grizzled, veteran warrior of the orcs. But not a green faced recruit. There's a lot of skill in fencing/hand to hand fighting
 

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