Seminar Transcript - Reimagining Skills and Ability Scores

Thraug · Jan 30, 2012

Rolling for stats in a game where stats have ANY impact on gameplay has the potential to ruin games.

Player-A and Player-B roll something close to: 11, 10, 10, 10, 7, 5
Player-C rolls something close to: 18, 18, 17, 15, 13, 12

I can assure you that Player-A and Player-B will not be happy with their low stats, especially compared to Player-C's awesome stats
A and B "accidentally" die and a new set of stat rolls need to be made for their new characters
Assuming the GM is cruel and rezzes A and B, they will most likely conveniently "lose" their character sheets and not recall what their stat rolls were
The DM wrote down what they rolled for stats? A and B stop showing up to play.
Char-C dies, can't be rezzed, and his new char rolls: 9, 8, 7, 6, 6, 3

A similar problem:

Player-A rolls 13, 12, 11, 11, 11, 10
Player-B rolls 11, 10, 9, 9, 9, 6
DM allows B to make a new char
Player-A is jealous and wants to reroll
All sorts of unhappiness and rerolling occurs

Sounds like fun to me.

Yes, exaggerated examples, but close to what happened in a 3e game I played in.

TarionzCousin · Jan 30, 2012

Morrus said:
DC has been mentioned in various contexts. The chances of it not being d20 + mod are so small that I promise to eat my hat if it's not that.

I really, really hope that they don't make us roll under ability scores. But if they do, this will be some consolation.

Filmed and shown on EN World TV, of course!

Lanefan · Jan 30, 2012

Deadboy said:
I'm hoping the stuff about hard-capping ability scores and "mortal limits" doesn't make it into the final version of the game. I liked that my character grew from a slightly above average person to a literal demi-god with ability scores in the 20s or even 30s.

I don't want to have to have stat boosting items making me look like a magic Christmas tree just so I can exceed mortal limits.

You might want to stick with 3e, then; as that's the best edition so far for such things to happen.

I'd like to see the 3-18 range be exceeded (up or down) by regular PC types only in unusual circumstances or by unusual (and very expensive and fragile) magic items.

That said, I'd also like to see some rules/guidelines/whatever dealing with PC divine ascension and how to play them once there - maybe a later "Immortals" book or something. And that's where the mortal limits go out the window 'cause hey, you're not mortal any more!

Lanefan

Blacky the Blackball · Jan 30, 2012

Morrus said:
DC has been mentioned in various contexts. The chances of it not being d20 + mod are so small that I promise to eat my hat if it's not that.

You're almost certainly correct, but my worry is that if they're reducing bonuses across the board (which the hints seem to show) then d20 + mod may end up with a random factor that's far too great compared to the ability factor.

Spinachcat · Jan 30, 2012

Gamma World 4e did stats really nicely. Put 18 in your prime stat, put 16 in your secondary stat and roll 3D6 down the line for the rest. It was fast, simple and nobody complained.

The silver standard is a terrible idea. D&D has always been on the gold standard and gold piece is one if its cool factors.

And the 4e Cosmology was the most gameable. Much better than the Great Wheel because in 4e, the planes bled over to the prime world and allowed much more interaction with planes at lower levels.

Blackwarder · Jan 30, 2012

All in all I like it.

I tony get all the aghast about abilities replacing skills, that is only in the core rules and you will have a module to add skills to the game as much as you would like, honestly I'd much prefer to use ability checks for skills and have skills be extra cool things instead of a flat +x to check.
That way two players could sit around the table, one of them use the skills module and the other don't and they still play the same.

For example, the climb skill could add the ability to automatically climb a wall at twice the climb skill, or double climb could give you the ability to climb vertical walls like a spider at 10' per round etc etc.

Thumbs up to racial penalties and more importantly for scalding bonuses and penalties to +1/-1 instead of +2.

Warder

Wormwood · Jan 30, 2012

Erdrick Dragin said:
When I can see my Paladin/Cavalier/Fighter Human from 3.5e character sheet, completely untouched and unmodified, be able to work in this edition, than I'll believe WotC.

Except they never promised that.

vagabundo · Jan 30, 2012

This seminar left me a little cold - or at least lukewarm - and I expected as much. They touched on a load of stuff that I hate from previous editions, but it's all about the implementation.

The reports from DNDxp give me hope because the games seems to run really well and at the end of the day that's what I want. Well that and easy prep time; yey for quick NPC creation (for people who want npcs to use the PC rules why don't you just use the pc rules??You don't need much more that what's already there).

- I hope all the small skill mods don't get too fiddly.
- I hope feats aren't the dumping ground for all sorts of crap. We have optional modules for unusual subsystems now. Keep them focused, interesting and non fiddly.
- I hope there isn't a huge focus on lots of dull magic items. I'm part of the Keep Our Magic Items Magic (KOMIM) campaign (now accepting new members); you find a +1 kopesh... bah throw it on the magic weapons wagon.

I'm excited about themes. I wonder if the warlord is a theme or a class. I'm excited about weapon groups, but I hope they import some of the weapon properties from 4e like Brutal rather than just new At-Wills.

/END RANDOM BRAIN DUMP...

Klaus · Jan 30, 2012

Thraug said:
Rolling for stats in a game where stats have ANY impact on gameplay has the potential to ruin games.

Player-A and Player-B roll something close to: 11, 10, 10, 10, 7, 5
Player-C rolls something close to: 18, 18, 17, 15, 13, 12

I can assure you that Player-A and Player-B will not be happy with their low stats, especially compared to Player-C's awesome stats

A and B "accidentally" die and a new set of stat rolls need to be made for their new characters

Assuming the GM is cruel and rezzes A and B, they will most likely conveniently "lose" their character sheets and not recall what their stat rolls were

The DM wrote down what they rolled for stats? A and B stop showing up to play.

Char-C dies, can't be rezzed, and his new char rolls: 9, 8, 7, 6, 6, 3

A similar problem:

Player-A rolls 13, 12, 11, 11, 11, 10

Player-B rolls 11, 10, 9, 9, 9, 6

DM allows B to make a new char

Player-A is jealous and wants to reroll

All sorts of unhappiness and rerolling occurs

Sounds like fun to me.

Yes, exaggerated examples, but close to what happened in a 3e game I played in.

Do what I did back in 2e: roll a "campaign array", and every player uses that.

TrickyUK · Jan 30, 2012

Really looking forward to D&D Next. I hear people saying they are worried that it is pulling too much from previous editions, but this is what excites me the most. I played 4e from the moment it was released and enjoyed it for a couple of years - I still play in a 4e game now. But it was starting to feel stale and souless (not necessarilly the game's fault as I think my group just jumped on the 4e band wagon because it was the new 'shiny' and we were actually still enjoying v3.5). Anyway, the past few months we've been playing Pathfinder and actually realised that, even with its faults, it felt more like the D&D game we have been playing for over 10 years - 4e is a good system, but just didn't feel like D&D. Now, 5e sounds like it's going to capture the 'good ol' D&D feel but also build some of the design success of 4e.