Proposal: Streamlined traits

With all due respect, what you've proven is that Paizo is still in denial as to Perception's power. You went through a paragraph of math to say that the price of Perception is equal to the price of, say, Stealth or Acrobatics according to wondrous items/ioun stones. But then you invalidated that with this:

Satin Knights said:

Your saying Capable: Perception is number one in power. I am saying, it is just in the top ten.

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Emphasis mine. Perception is the most used skill in the game, regardless of class or party role. I know it, everyone here knows it, and in spite of the Paizo price check, you obviously know it too, or else Capable: Perception would have been fighting with Capable: Handle Animal and Capable: Acrobatics for your top ten.

I'd like to clarify, that I have not been saying that Capable: Perception is the strongest trait. I have absolutely been saying that Perception is the strongest skill, and that it deserves different rules that the other skills. I'd also like to point out that everyone who has already voted YES to this proposal has already accepted that not all skills are created equal. The proposal clearly specifies different rules for Knowledge skills as opposed to other skills, and no one even thought twice about that distinction.

Clearly, the vote is for a Perception trait. I happen to disagree, but it appears that ship has sailed. What I don't understand is that if people accept that there are different tiers of skills, and that traits can be used to offset that, then why aren't you at least trying to balance a Perception trait, as per Astute?

As a judge I have been watching this thread closely, but I haven't found myself pulled from the fence just yet. I certainly appreciate all of the discssion about it as it helps me muddle through things in forming my own opinion as I absorb the opinions being posted. Definitely glad you decided to hang around in the thread as well [MENTION=93930]Systole[/MENTION] as whether I agree with all of your reasoning it is still a valuable perspective in my opinion.

Some of my random thoughts at the moment. As I said, I think I would adopt Systole's proposal in a home game in a heartbeat, with capable(perception) being allowed. In a home game I would likely make a character wrap their own fluff around the customized trait before being allowed to use it.

To me this beats having to sift through hundreds of traits to find one that matches what you want for your character. Or having a lot of characters having been bullied as a child simply to get a +2 initiative. To me that almost breaks immersion more than simply admitting people want traits to mechanically support their character and simply giving them mechanical options to wrap their own fluff around.

This system would also minimize some of the approvals we need to do or re-fluffs if we adopted it.

But then the other side of me has the cling to rules as written side of things because this is akin to an organized play game. While in my home games I tweak rules or let things slides fairly liberally I usually find myself more reluctant to do so for OP games due to the myriad of people playing them and GMing them. I find customizing things to potentially be a slippery slope when we should just use the rules as written, warts and all. I've ruled this way on other issues that have come up during my time as judge.

So - uh, yeah - that is my long winded way of saying I am still reading this thread and still thinking about it before I cast my vote just yet.

Systole said:

I have absolutely been saying that Perception is the strongest skill, and that it deserves different rules that the other skills. I'd also like to point out that everyone who has already voted YES to this proposal has already accepted that not all skills are created equal. The proposal clearly specifies different rules for Knowledge skills as opposed to other skills, and no one even thought twice about that distinction.

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I agree that perception is strong, I just don't see it overwhelmingly strong - perhaps shortsightedly. If someone wants to bring Perception in as a class skill then they are passing up other traits and will be putting points to a skill that might leave them unable to put points in another skill they could use. I also think a lot of the players here tend more towards roleplaying their character and would pass on Perception simply because it doesn't make sense for their character or that from the fluff side another skill makes more sense.

As for the Knowledge skills, I guess I see the proposal as simply acknowleding there are so many more knowledge skills that to keep pace with them you need to be able to take or gain more of them with a single trait than skills that are not subdivided into further categories.

Systole said:

What I don't understand is that if people accept that there are different tiers of skills, and that traits can be used to offset that, then why aren't you at least trying to balance a Perception trait, as per Astute?

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I think because several of us (well, at least me) think that it is the skill is more the issue than the trait. By trying to patch it with the trait system we are starting to not only introduce a new streamlined trait system to the game, but we are also trying to start fixing other core areas of the game. As noted above, organized play to me is trying to adhere to the rules as written to keep the barrier to LPF play a little lower.

Why not just make a trait that adds +2 to perception if it's not a class skill, +1 if it is?

Why are we trying to streamline the traits? Because if you throw out the 50 PFS faction traits and all the campaign traits from the Adventure Paths, you still have 468 official traits in the Paizo books.

In other words, "by the book" takes too long and will lead to hundreds of repetitive proposals just to get the skill in a grouping that is not already used by the character.

It also lets us close the door for a while on the other esoteric traits. If you want to be frightened, think about Diabolic Dabbler from Cheliax, Empire of Devils for a master summoner. Add +1 HP/HD to all fiendish summons for the duration of the summoning spell. When that stacks with their automatic Augment Summoning, critters come at +3 HP/HD over the standard bestiary entries.


Perception already has two trait possibilities for PFS members.
Osirion Tomb Raider: You’ve spent most of your life exploring the ancient tombs and catacombs of Osirion. You gain a +1 bonus on Perception and Knowledge (dungeoneering) checks, and one of these skills (your choice) becomes a class skill for you.
Woohoo! You get a bonus on a knowledge skill too if you are taking it through your faction. Or be a worshiper of Abadar who worked the city watch to get the +1 trait and class skill of perception. Change "worshiper of Abadar" to "former member of the White Cloaks" and the trait fits En if we were going to instead just refluff APG traits.

As to Perception is the most important skill in the game, I would counter with Diplomacy is more important.
A) If you need information, you have to get the diplomacy check right the first time. Unless you are a "Patient Optimist" you don't get a retry at the skill.
B) You cannot take 20 on it.
C) Only one person makes the diplomacy roll, not five people in parallel, taking the best roll.
D) Depending on the GM, a failed Aid Another on Diplomacy incurs the negative effects as if it was the primary roll. So, it is not wise to even attempt if you have a miserable bonus to the skill.

As soon as we go down the path of "Perception deserves less of a boost", we open the door to "Well, appraise doesn't get much use, so it deserves more of a boost to make the trait attractive." Appraise, climb, disguise and swim all fall in that category of not used much. It is better, in my opinion, to set one streamlined rule for knowledges and one for the other skills.

Since IVV is mostly AFK due to RL and Walking Dad has seemingly gotten interested in other shiny things and wandered away, it is up to you Ironwolf as to if we settle this or have to send a search party out for them. See, Diplomacy is important!

Satin Knights said:

It also lets us close the door for a while on the other esoteric traits. If you want to be frightened, think about Diabolic Dabbler from Cheliax, Empire of Devils for a master summoner. Add +1 HP/HD to all fiendish summons for the duration of the summoning spell. When that stacks with their automatic Augment Summoning, critters come at +3 HP/HD over the standard bestiary entries.

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What I want to know is, what kind of crazy fool would make a proposal for a trait like that?

Satin Knights said:

See, Diplomacy is important!

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Straight from the mouth of the master of diplomacy himself...

Just to throw my two cents in: conceptually, I love the idea of streamlining at least some of the traits. It's a bit redundant to have to multiple traits that all mechanically do the exact same thing, just for a different skill. I see no point in separating Perception from the other skills. It's useful, sure, but it's overall power depends a lot on the circumstances. There are plenty of situations where relying on your senses simply isn't going to be that much help, due to limits placed on the senses themselves, i.e. walking down a tunnel in a dungeon tends to inhibit all of the senses to some degree, or simply because the situation involves a lot of factors that your senses can't measure, like many social interactions.

In practice, this is much harder to do than is sounds, however. I would actually pull all such traits out of the existing categories, and put knowledgeble, resiliant, and simply make them universal and treat them like you would weapon focus, where the base mechanic is the same, just applied to different specific instances. This keeps the purpose and logic of the categories for the trait system in general, which is genuinely needed for many of the traits, but reduces the clutter and headache of trying to categorize what skill should fall under what category or whether or not a particular refluffing job is appropriate or not. So if I had a vote, I would have to support option 2 (with option 3 also being acceptable). It seems like the best compromise between keeping the bookkeeping managable, while preserving the overall intergrity of the system as written.

IronWolf said:

Definitely glad you decided to hang around in the thread as well @Systole as whether I agree with all of your reasoning it is still a valuable perspective in my opinion.

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As an encore, SK and I will argue over whether Shield or Mage Armor is better spell for spontaneous casters.

Satin Knights said:

Why are we trying to streamline the traits? Because if you throw out the 50 PFS faction traits and all the campaign traits from the Adventure Paths, you still have 468 official traits in the Paizo books

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Wow, I did not realize it was that bad. I take back what I said about rather having the old system than the new system with Capable: Perception. That's ridiculous.

Satin Knights said:

Perception already has two trait possibilities for PFS members.

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PFS also allows the Diabolic Dabbler trait. Just because PFS allows it, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

This is LPF, guys. You are the judges. You guys are supposed to choose between what works and what doesn't. If you don't think Capable: Perception is overpowered, that's one thing. If you do, you shouldn't give it a pass because PFS did. Make up your own minds.

Satin Knights said:

As to Perception is the most important skill in the game, I would counter with Diplomacy is more important.

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Sorry. I have to disagree here, SK. When I'm dungeon-crawling, I'll take Perception, every time.

Satin Knights said:

As soon as we go down the path of "Perception deserves less of a boost", we open the door to "Well, appraise doesn't get much use, so it deserves more of a boost to make the trait attractive." Appraise, climb, disguise and swim all fall in that category of not used much. It is better, in my opinion, to set one streamlined rule for knowledges and one for the other skills.

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So we're falling down the slippery slope by admitting that there's probably more like 3 tiers of skills rather than just two?

sunshadow21 said:

It's [Perception] useful, sure, but it's overall power depends a lot on the circumstances.

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You can say this about every skill.

Systole said:

As an encore, SK and I will argue over whether Shield or Mage Armor is better spell for spontaneous casters.

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And here I was just about to come out of the corner I've been hiding in.....

I'll take a well thought out argument over capitulation every time. But since we have covered just about everything on this issue, we are just waiting on the other judges to chime in.

[sblock=Mage Armor tangential derailment]
And of course I think mage armor wins.

At first level, you spend 33% of your casting resources on defense that covers 3-4 battles. Shield requires a casting for each battle. You could possibly squeeze two combats in if you don't bother to loot the bodies or heal after a fight. So, you are not covered and out of spells by the fourth fight. If you have used an offensive spell, the tank is empty even sooner. At first level, you cannot afford the wand of mage armor to supplement the castings.

At third level you could afford a wand of mage armor. But is was a tough life to get here by the choosing Shield over Mage Armor path. And each 15gp burned off of the wand only lasts an hour. So, it is likely you will spend several charges in a day. You could burn through the wand in a couple weeks.

By fifth level, two castings of mage armor cover the working day. That leaves 80% of your spells for offense.

You pick up Shield as your forth spell known at fifth level, or fifth known at seventh level. By this time, you are starting to need both spells to cover you in battle. If you have a lot of first level spells you like, the Expanded Arcana feat allows you to pick up two of them when taken at fifth level or above. So, you add Shield in by fifth or seventh level.

By tenth level, you can even afford to cast mage armor to sleep in. At this level, the wand is extremely cheap in comparison, but the duration of the spell off the wand seems as a drawback. The thought of a wand should be moot at this point if you have both spells by now. In other words, by the time wands are trivially cheap, they are also superseded.

Mage Armor is a "long before combat has started" spell. Shield is a "as combat is starting spell". So, you lose a standard action in each fight by choosing Shield. When many fights only go three rounds, you have wasted a third of your time on a buff prep. You can circumvent part of this when you choose when the surprise round happens, prebuffing before hand, but you only get to do that 50% of the time.

So, my opinion is Mage Armor is greater than Shield, but it is best to have both by fifth level.[/sblock]

Thanks everyone for the discussion from all participants. I found it informative and useful for decision making.

I am going to vote YES for accepting streamlined traits, option 2 with Capableerception. That should be the 4th Yes vote needed to get it approved.