My house rule for training feats and skills (a bit long)

Hello.

Taking into account that there are hundreds (thousands may be? )of feats out there and that all basic classes except fighter, psychic warrior and wizard are struck with getting one at start and one every 3 levels, I got to the conclusion that some sort of training rule was neccesary.

I don't want to make this system munchkin land or whatever. I plan to offer it to my players in my campaign as a mean of them getting their preferred character by a little sacrifice. Of course, I know that many players will abuse the system to get uber-characters but... everyone knows how to use it to make uber-nemesis,don't you?

Perhaps by using this system you may find that some players will get some feats that are not very powerful but make sense with their idea of their character, their character's fighting style or whatever. Of course, as DM if you think it is being abused you must warn your players of it and take the measures you want.

The system is designed based in part on the training rules for level advancement and part on the item creation rules.

The system is very simple. In your campaign spare time between adventures, you can let players invest in training with Military Academies, Thieve's Guild, Monasteries, Churches, Wizard Mentors or what makes sense to each character. It is a method to use some interesting NPC teachers, fellow students, etc and to use them for future plots in the campaign.

If a player wants to train a feat or skill, he first has to find someone who knows the feat or who has the rank he wants to achieve or better. This becomes more difficult at the high levels because almost no weaponsmith is going to have 15 or more ranks in craft(weaponsmithing).

To find if the feat or skill is available use common sense or use the rules for GP Limit by community size (DMG 137) using the cost of the training as a guide. Also consider that Ride skill or Mounted Combat chain of feats teachers are very more likely available in the nomadic horseriding cultures of the stepppes. You have the final say on if it is available or not and who the eligible teacher(s) are.

The cost of training for additional feats and skills is as follows:

Feats: ((Number of prereq. for the feat to be trained +1) + (Number of feats you have*)) x 100 XP.

* Total number of feats, be it trained, bonus feats per class, normal feats or even virtual feats you gain as a class ability.

You can only train one additional feat per character level (You don't have to train one each level but you cannot have more additional feats than levels you have)

You must have all prerequisites as normal to train for a feat.

The amount of GP you must expend to be trained is decided by the DM. I recommend it to be double the amount of XP, but you can use other forms of payment as favors, quests, etc.

So say you are a 1st level elf fighter with the feats Dodge and Weapon Focus(Longbow) with 750 XP and from your lattest adventure you got 700 gp and you are eager to expend them in some training. You know that you are close to be 2nd level, but perhaps you can't wait to have the Mobility feat.
The cost would be : 2+1 for prerequisites of Mobility +2 for the two feats you already have for the cost of 100 XP to a total of 500 XP. You really wanted the feat but it is very expensive. You wanted the Point Blank Shot so you can have the Shot on the Run as soon as possible.
Point Blank Shot has no prerequisites, so it costs you:
0+1 for prerequisites +2 for the feats you have for a total of 3x100: 300 XP and perhaps 600 GP. So you train it and you now have 450 XP and 100 gp. You cannot train more extra feats until you are at least 2nd level.
A couple of adventures later you get to 2nd level. Now you have the Dodge, Weapon Focus (Longbow) Mobility (as fighter bonus feat) and Point Blank Shot you trained. Now, you are eager to train the Shot on the Run!. It will cost you 4+1 for prerequisites +4 for the feats you have x 100 XP so it costs 900 XP. It is fairly more than you are willing to expend so you go for the Precise Shot feat. This costs you 1+1 for prerequisites +4 for the feats you have x100= 600 XP. Well, it is a bit expensive but you train it.


If the feats your players want to train are not overly useful and it adds some flavor to the character (Skill Focus, Toughness, Run, etc.) you may want to reduce the cost. Perhaps by reducing by half the number of feats they have for purposes of the cost or something like that.

Skills
You must pay the training cost for each rank (or half rank in the case of cross class skills) separately. You may not exceed the maximum rank you can have according to your level.

Number of skill trainings you have in this skill+1 x 25 XP

Each time you train you get to improve your skill as if you had expent one skill point in this skill (+1 rank for class skills or half-rank if cross-class).

You may not train skills more times than half your available skill points per level. This is for a human fighter with 13 int: 2 skill trainings per level. You don't have to expend them on a level by level basis. If you are a multiclass character with different allotments of skill points, calculate it on a level by level basis: For example a halfling rogue 3/fighter 2 with 14 int has (3x(8+2) + 2x(2+2)) = 38/2 = 19 skill trainings available.

As an example of the costs, consider the halfling rogue 3/fighter 2. He wants to train Use Magic Device, a skill he has not allotted any of his skill points. As it is a class exclusive skill, he only can get it to 6 ranks. To do this he must train 6 times with costs:
0+1x25= 25 XP
1+1x25= 50 XP
2+1x25= 75 XP
3+1x25=100 XP
4+1x25=125 XP
5+1x25=150 XP
for a total of 525XP!!. He has spent 6 of his 19 possible skill trainings. He now wants to train in balance, to bring his 4 ranks(spent as rogue 1) to 6. He needs to expend 2 of his 13 remaining trainings with a cost of: 25 XP and 50 XP for a total of 75 XP. Well, he has 11 trainings available but as he has spent 600XP he decides to not train anymore.


For the mechanics to work, I must present a new skill. It is considered to be a class skill for ALL classes:

Teaching (Cha)
You are trained in the basics of teaching others the knowledge you have.
Check: You can train skills or feats you know to others by spending time teaching them your knowledge. To teach multiple students, everyone must be training the same skill or feat. Each day you spend at least one hour training with your students you must make a Teaching check with the DC 20 and the following modifiers:

+2 DC for each two students past one (to a maximum of +10 DC)
A competence bonus equal to your students' lowest Int modifier.
A +2 bonus if you have teached succesfully the same skill or feat other times.
A -2 penalty if you have never tried to teach that skill of feat. If you tried but didn't success this does not apply.
A +1 bonus if you spend at least 4 hours each day training (You may not spend more than 8 hours a day).
A +2 bonus if you spend 8 hours a day
A -2 penalty if you spend less than 2 hours each day.
A -1 penalty for each day that has passed without training. (This may result in the training process to be ruined if this penalty makes impossible for you to beat the DC. In this case, you must start the proccess again).

If you beat the DC you get to teach each student an amount of "XPs" for the purpose of learning the skill or feat equal to the amount by which you pass the test + the student int modifier multiplied by 5.

So if for example, you are teaching Point Blank Shot to 3 students which have Int modifiers of +2, 0 and -1. You have teached this feat other times and you have a Teaching skill of +12 (9 ranks and +3 charisma). Consider that the students need 300, 400 and 300 XPs to learn the feat (see the rules governing this above).
You spend 4 hours each day training them in the use of the feat. So you have a total bonus of +12 for skill, +2 for having teached succesfully this feat before, +1 for spending 4 hours each day and -1 for your worst student int modifier for a total bonus of +15.
The DC of the skill check is 20 +2 for having 3 students for a total DC of 22. So you can take 10 on the Teaching skill checks. If you do, you beat the DC by 3 each day. So you get to give 3+int modifier x 5 XPs of teaching each day: So the first student gets 25 XPs each day, the second 15 XPs each day and the third 10 XPs each day. Taking into acount the XP requirements of each student, the first one takes 12 days to learn the feat. If he leaves the training, you now have a DC of 20 for having only two students, and your total bonus is +15, so you beat the DC by 5 each day. The second student has already 180 XPs from the first 12 days and the third has 120 XPs. Now you give the second 25 XPs each day and 20XPs to the third. In 9 days more the second student learns the feat by reaching 405 XPs (the 5 that exceed the needed amount are discarded) and the third gets 300 XPs in those 9 days so you complete the training of all 3 students in 21 days.

Anyway, I want feedback on this system. I know it must have a lot of failings but I want to make it into a workable system that I may use in my campaign so please, give me feedback, critiques or suggested changes to make this work. Thanks

"The system is very simple."

Took more than 6 sentences to present.

The rules for GO can be summed up in 6 sentences.

Go is a very complex and subtle and workable game in itself.

I think you failed to make a very simple system.

Please try again and come back when 6 sentence is enough.

Seriously, for an IN BETWEEN ADVANTURES thing intended to be simple this is a lot of text and BS and such to fool with. Is your goal to turn "downtime" and "leveling up" into a task not unlike doing your taxes?

leveling up issupposed to be the rewards phase for jobs well done, not an exercise in more math.

Here's my rule for training to gain feats:

From my House Rules:
Acquisition of feats that have a high requirement and/or is a regional feat are harder to acquire. Thus a feat with 4 or more prerequisites (such as the Great Cleave feat) or a regional feat will require training from another learned person (that has the feat), else you get a low percentage of chance of learning by yourself: For every character level you get a cumulative +2% chance to succeed in learning by yourself. Each Intelligence bonus adds an additional +5%; likewise an Intelligence penalty is a -5%. The first exception to this rule is at level one: you may select any regional feat by selecting the region (or race in some cases) you are born. The other exception is if there is a class indicator such as ranger, fighter, sorcerer, etc, then the proper class may gain these feats as normal while others treat them as regional feats. For example, a fighter may select Great Cleave without a problem, while a ranger must either learn Great Cleave from someone or try to learn by himself (roll percentage as mentioned above).

A character with at least 5 ranks in Knowledge (battle) can increase the chance to learn feats related solely to fighting. The Knowledge check DC to learn a martial feat is 12 + 1 per each prerequisite (+6 DC for regional martial feat). Thus, a martial feat with 5 prerequisites will have a Knowledge check of DC 17, while a regional martial feat with zero prerequisite will have a DC of 18. If the Knowledge check fails, you may not roll the percentage chance to learn by yourself.

All characters can bank only one feat at any time before their next level advancement. Fighters can bank up to 1 + Intelligence bonus number of their bonus feats at a time in addition to the normal one feat banking limit.

Click to expand...

Now I need to figure out a standardized training costs.

Well, I thought the core of the system was not overly complicated. I must admit that the skill Teaching is a little mess (sorry I was inventing it as I wrote). I must also say that almost all the post was regarding some examples and advice into integrating the system into play. As for the six sentences length, I will try

Let's simplify the system somewhat:

Training Feats:
You may train a maximum of one extra feat per level. It costs you GPs decided by the DM and the following XPs:

(100 XP x (Number of prereq. + 1) x Total Number of Feats you have)

Training Skills:
You may train only half the amount of skill points you get by level (don't multiply those of 1st level). It costs you the following XPs:

Number of trainings you have in this skill + 1 x 25 XPs

Each training gives you the same benefits of a skill point spent on the skill. You are limited as always in the number of ranks you can have in a skill.

Forget about the Teaching skill. Calculate the time requirements to suit your campaign and gaming style. Perhaps a good basis is about 25 + 5 x Int Modifier XPs each day.

That's all. Sufficiently simple now? It is more than 6 lines long but I think it is not overly complicated.

Same thing here

I was looking around if someone has a D&D adaptable system without levels. Or MAINLY without levels.

As for the so called downtime between adventures.... Do your players have downtime? Mine have no such thing I chase them around the world as I like it.

I'd think that this change would greatly weaken classes that get bonus feats. Besides attack, HP, and saves, all a fighter has are a bunch of extra feats.

A barbarian could get all the barbarian class benefits, and invest a lot of his gold and XP in feat training and get quite a few bonus feats. It would probably be especially beneficial to train feats at 2nd level, in which case a non fighter could buy a feat for mere 100 XP.

For example, take a 1/2 orc barbarian 1. He has Exotic Weapon Spiked chain. In the middle of 1st level, he buys Weapon focus for 100 XP. For a 100 XP penalty, he essentially gained the class ablities of 1 level of barbarian and one level of fighter. At second level he could do the same thing for Power Attack at a 200 XP cost. Compare this guy to a 1/2 orc fighter. The fighter has 2 feats starting, and gets another at second. He matches the barb in feats and the barb has Rage, Fast Movement, better HD, etc. Of course the fighter can buy feats too. However, they cost much more for him. Assuming that each character buys two extra feats over the first two level, the fighter would maintain his feat advantage, thus preserving his class ability. Because of the costs though, the fighter spent twice as much XP. This cost difference doesn't even take into account the fact that the fighter might start taking higher end feats sooner, because he exhausts the entrance feats. He'd be even more behind then.

Victim said:

I'd think that this change would greatly weaken classes that get bonus feats. Besides attack, HP, and saves, all a fighter has are a bunch of extra feats.

I agree with you that the fighter is all about having lots of feats. I'm trying to get a system that makes single class characters of other classes more attractive to players that want their characters to have a lot of feats (by paying a cost instead of multiclassing into fighter)


A barbarian could get all the barbarian class benefits, and invest a lot of his gold and XP in feat training and get quite a few bonus feats. It would probably be especially beneficial to train feats at 2nd level, in which case a non fighter could buy a feat for mere 100 XP.

It is impossible to train a feat for a mere 100 XP. All characters have at least one feat at first level, so for training a feat without prerequisites, it costs 200 XP. Add to that, 100 XP for each prerequisite of the feat... it is not that cheap.


For example, take a 1/2 orc barbarian 1. He has Exotic Weapon Spiked chain. In the middle of 1st level, he buys Weapon focus for 100 XP. For a 100 XP penalty, he essentially gained the class ablities of 1 level of barbarian and one level of fighter.


Actually it costs him 300 XPs (Exotic Weapon Proficency has one prerequisite so that's a base of 200 XP plus 100 XPs because he has another feat at first level (everybody has at least one)
That means that he has to sacrifice almost a third of what it takes to reach level 2 (It seems to me that it is a balanced cost)


At second level he could do the same thing for Power Attack at a 200 XP cost. Compare this guy to a 1/2 orc fighter. The fighter has 2 feats starting, and gets another at second. He matches the barb in feats and the barb has Rage, Fast Movement, better HD, etc. Of course the fighter can buy feats too. However, they cost much more for him. Assuming that each character buys two extra feats over the first two level, the fighter would maintain his feat advantage, thus preserving his class ability. Because of the costs though, the fighter spent twice as much XP. This cost difference doesn't even take into account the fact that the fighter might start taking higher end feats sooner, because he exhausts the entrance feats. He'd be even more behind then.

Click to expand...

Well, you have a point in that a fighter would have a higher cost in buying feats with this training method. To fix it, I would say that the bonus feats you get from a class ability (be them fighter bonus feats, wizard bonus feats, or even monk class ability pseudo feats) don't count towards the Total amount of feats you have when calculating training costs. It makes sense that the costs of training would remain the same whatever class you have.

"(100 XP x (Number of prereq. + 1) x Total Number of Feats you have)"

For a first level character with one feat, learning a feat with no prereqs:

100(0+1)(1) = 100*1*1=100

Maybe you meant to add the # of current feats to the Prereqs. As it stands, you multiply by one twice, so it costs 100.

Victim said:

"(100 XP x (Number of prereq. + 1) x Total Number of Feats you have)"

For a first level character with one feat, learning a feat with no prereqs:

100(0+1)(1) = 100*1*1=100

Maybe you meant to add the # of current feats to the Prereqs. As it stands, you multiply by one twice, so it costs 100.

Click to expand...

Oooops! my fault....

100 XP x ((Number of prereq. + 1) + Total Number of Feats you have)

Sorry about the inconvenience