D&D 4E Things wrong with 4e: Dragons

jshaft37

Explorer
"Do what you need!" is the single most useless piece of advice I ever received as a DM. It seems obvious to me that DMs should always do what they need. It's in the job description, practically. "DM's control the game." Ergo, they can do what they want or need to make the game go.

What do I need to do? What is cool about this monster? What encounters and plotlines can I use it in? What does it do when adventurers aren't showing up to ruin it's day? How do I react to what the PC's do to it?

I don't know what I need it to do before I use it in a game. What I need at that moment I DO use it is for the game to tell me what it does. I don't need reassurance that I can do whatever I want. I need empowerment.

You can at least start with giving me dungeons and dragons in a game called Dungeons & Dragons.

The thing is, when you start doing things like detailing an orc warcamp, or a dragon lair, you also detail things like, say, the animals that live nearby, the traps that they use, the leaders that they have, the variants that occur, and you have something that any DM, new or old, can plunk down in front of her party tonight and use, without any major prep required.

And each individual bit can still be broken out and tossed into a compendium for those who want to prepare their own dragon lair.

Major difference being, with enough context, I no longer have to do it all myself. I export the boring work of detailing an orc camp out to the Monster Manual, and I can spend more time worrying about where I'd put that orc camp in my world.

FWIW, some 2e monsters, and many 1e monsters (especially humanoids) had this kind of built into their monster descriptions. Check out the orc description in the 2e MM: aside from a map, it gives me all I need to plunk orcs down anywhere in my world. An orc statblock is a fairly boring thing in and of itself (looks like most other humanoid statblocks). An orc camp is a useful thing, though.

I also think the "quantity over quality" approach to MM's is distinctly unnecessary from a publishing standpoint. After just a few books, the market reaches a saturation point where moar monsters doesn't add much to the game. Statistically, if you use 5 different statblocks in every combat for 10 combats per level over 10 levels (roughly the amount of time people spend playing a campaign according to Mearls), you use only 500 unique stat blocks (with even distribution over those 10 levels no less). That's less than two monster manuals, let alone tricks like reskinning, modding, templating, and ability swapping.

Thirdly, if you provide DMs with a way to usefully generate their own statblocks (a very useful addition from 4e), you don't NEED to give them squat. You will have all the statblocks you ever need right there in front of you. If you run out or feel like changing things up or want a particular thing, you can make it.

It's not my job as a DM to sit alone in my bedroom and carefully hand-craft an entire night's adventure from a few statblocks and my own chutzpah.

It's my job as a DM to run an active D&D game, and that means filling in the blanks for me, or at least giving me something like MadLibs so I can fill them in on the spot with a random die roll or something.

DMing, to me, is about playing the game, not preparing to play the game.

Although I disagreed about being able to use a Dragon/Solo as a Villian, I'm going to agree with most of what is here, especially the last statement.

From what I can tell, 5E is moving toward 2E as far as flavor, fluff, ecology, etc. Even the Essentials MV and MV:TttNV have incorporated much more fluff and flavor to their entries. I think WotC is on the right track and will continue this path.

In 2012, I think it would make perfect sense to release a MM with fluff as a Book/PDF and an MC with only crunch as a digital tool only.

Like you, I like to PLAY the game not prep the game. I DM sandboxy, so having generic information that I can either use immediately, or quickly reskin is essential for my games.
 

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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Incenjucar said:
Yeah, I'll pass on your random trivia.

Everything that I value in the 1e mimic's description is something I can functionally use immediately at the table. It's not random trivia, it's valuable gameplay material.

And the DMG's list of random room trappings is also valuable gameplay material, for when I don't want to (or don't have the experience to) generate this stuff myself. As in, when I'm at the table, actually playing the game, and I need to determine if there's any corpses in the room for the cleric to cast Speak with Dead on.

Neonchameleon said:
I want the monster manual as a reference guide

A book is in every way except one an inferior reference to a digital compendium. The one way that it isn't -- in that it is more accessible at the table -- is kind of moot if you have to do prep anyway.

Neonchameleon said:
Try Monster Vault and Monster Vault: Threats to Nentir Vale.

I really think those are steps in the right direction. I'd like them to go further down this road. I don't see these as supplements, I see them as essential to the experience of D&D (They were cast in the Essentials for a reason -- context is valuable to newbie DMs). Better monster manuals than the Monster Manual.

Neonchameleon said:
Really? To me it's pretty much functionally a book of statblocks.

That's weird to me especially because 1e had statblocks that were not the most useful things for reference. Not to mention the preponderance of monsters whose stats didn't matter so much, since they were more traps than critters. A 1e MM used primarily as a book of statblocks seems like using a shovel as a hammer. Sure, you can do it, but... (admittedly, when that book came out, there was no such thing as hammers, so, y'know, you use what you have).

It would strike me as especially narmed to sell a book of statblocks in a game like where monster stats are all generic formula, anyway. Assuming 5e has some sort of easy-peasy monster generation system (and I REALLY want it to!), why do you need 300 pages of things you can generate yourself in five minutes?

I'd also like to point out that this isn't really about "fluff." The ability of blue dragons to use illusions was rules material -- those spell-like abilities were rules material. It was useful noncombat rules material. I don't really need much in the way of mating and diet information for most critters. But knowing that some mimics are friendly and filled with information about the dungeon? Very useful. In play. Right away.
 
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jshaft37

Explorer
Bear Lore? Please extrapolate.

From 2E MM (All credits where credit is due):

A rather common omnivorous mammal, bears tend to avoid humans unless provoked. Exceptions to this rule can be a most unfortunate occurrence. Bears are, in general, large and powerful animals which are found throughout the world's temperate and cooler climates. With dense fur protecting them from the elements and powerful claws protecting them from other animals, bears are the true rulers of the animal kingdom in the areas where they live. The so-called black bear actually ranges in color from black to light brown. It is smaller than the brown bear and the most widespread species by far.

Combat: Although black bears are usually not aggressive, they are able fighters when pressed. If a black bear scores a paw hit with an 18 or better it also hugs for 2-8 (2d4) points of additional damage.

Habitat/Society:All bears have excellent senses of hearing and smell but rather poor eyesight. The size shown is an average for the variety and larger individuals will, of course, be correspondingly more powerful. One common misconception people hold about bears is that they hibernate during the winter. In fact, they sleep most of the time, but their metabolism does not slow down, and they often wake up and leave their lairs during warm spells. Bears live in small family groups. Female bears are very protective of their young, and more than one individual has been badly injured when taunting or playing with seemingly harmless bear cubs.

Ecology: All of these ursoids are omnivorous, although the gigantic cave bear tends towards a diet of meat. Bears are fairly intelligent animals that can be trained to perform in a variety of ways, particularly if captured as cubs. Bears can thus be found dancing in circuses or accompanying "mountain men" in the wilderness.

Brown Bear
The brown bear, of which the infamous grizzly is the most well known variety, is a bear of very aggressive disposition. Brown bears are more carnivorous than their smaller cousins, the black bears. The grizzly in particular will often bring down large game such as deer and elk. Brown bears are aggressive hunters. If a brown bear scores a paw hit with a roll of 18 or better it will also hug for 2-12 (2d6) points of additional damage. Brown bears will continue to fight for 1-4 melee rounds after reaching 0 to -8 hit points. At -9 or fewer hit points, they are killed immediately.

Cave Bear
Cave bears are quite aggressive, willing to attack well-armed parties without provocation. If a cave bear scores a paw hit with an 18 or better it also hugs for 2-16 (2d8) points of additional damage. Cave bears will continue to fight for 1-4 melee rounds after reaching 0 to -8 hit points. At -9 or fewer hit points, they are killed immediately.

Polar Bear
These powerful swimmers feed mostly on marine animals. A paw hit of 18 or better indicates a "hug", which inflicts 3-18 (3d6) points of additional damage. These aggressive animals will fight for 2-5 rounds after being brought to 0 to -12 hit points, but beyond that they will die instantly.
 
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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Stormonu said:
Bear Lore? Please extrapolate.

The 4e MM has an entry on bears. There, it has a paragraph headed "BEAR LORE," that lets DMs know that PC's who make a DC 15 Nature check can know that a bear craps in the woods (well, that it lives in the woods, but y'know).

And if you make a DC 20 check, you know that they use their claws to kill you!

"Does a bear live in the woods?!"
"Make a DC 15 Nature check!"
"Is the Pope Catholic?"
"Make a DC 15 Religion check!"

This seems to me like pointless fluff for the sake of fluff, not useful gameplay material. If the party's in the woods and a bear shows up and starts clawing people, I don't think anyone needs to make a skill check to get the gist of that scenario.

Using bears instead as support for some more iconic monsters (perhaps including bear stats with your werebear when you're detailing lycanthropes, or including them with a group of humans that use BEARS AS CAVALRY or whatever) both enhances the iconic monster by making it more instantly usable, and enhances the bear by putting it in context and not wasting wordcount on some artificial need to add Lore to every entry in the MM.

Thus, Bear Lore is an example of how not every monster is worthy of detailed information. The mimic probably falls into this camp, too. It's a trap monster designed to jump out and harass passersby (and sometimes be smart, friendly, and useful). It doesn't need a detailed entry and speculation about its mating habits. It needs to serve its role as a trap-monster, and be put in a larger context.

And, of course, those who really want to make bears or mimics the center of their adventures can do so. The game just assumes you'd rather focus on things like dragons and drow and kuo-toa and necromancers and whatever.
 

fenriswolf456

First Post
What do I need to do? What is cool about this monster? What encounters and plotlines can I use it in? What does it do when adventurers aren't showing up to ruin it's day? How do I react to what the PC's do to it?

I don't know what I need it to do before I use it in a game. What I need at that moment I DO use it is for the game to tell me what it does. I don't need reassurance that I can do whatever I want. I need empowerment.

I'm not sure I'm following. It sounds like most of your encounters are random, so I'm not sure why it's important for the game to tell you how to use them, since you'll have to work to make it fit to the context of the game. Though I can see such information at least giving you ideas as to what would happen if the party comes across a manticore lair, say.

Sounds like you want the compendium. Which is an awesome and indispensable tool, but not something I'd want WotC to print out, slap between two hardcovers, scatter with some art and charge me $40 for. Books are no longer the best medium for a directory of things. You're going to need to Engage me to get me to bother with it.

True, but this hasn't really been an option until recently. And I do prefer to have more than just a stat block (or line). Usually the big selling point on physical MMs though is the art, since the visual impression of just what a monster looks like adds a lot to being an engaging, interesting monster.


The thing is, when you start doing things like detailing an orc warcamp, or a dragon lair, you also detail things like, say, the animals that live nearby, the traps that they use, the leaders that they have, the variants that occur, and you have something that any DM, new or old, can plunk down in front of her party tonight and use, without any major prep required.

And each individual bit can still be broken out and tossed into a compendium for those who want to prepare their own dragon lair.

Major difference being, with enough context, I no longer have to do it all myself. I export the boring work of detailing an orc camp out to the Monster Manual, and I can spend more time worrying about where I'd put that orc camp in my world.

It would be awesome to have such information at hand. The issue is in space. You simply can't do this for a lot of monsters without sacrificing a bunch. The orc camp may be cool for the orc-lover, but if gnolls got cut out of the manual due to space, that leaves the gnoll-lover out in the cold. So a balance has to be struck at some point.

I've grown used to 4E in that there are often different 'classes' of the same creature. These too could be affected by space considerations, and for myself, I'd rather 6 different orc classes, than 3 orc classes and a sample camp.

I also think the "quantity over quality" approach to MM's is distinctly unnecessary from a publishing standpoint. After just a few books, the market reaches a saturation point where moar monsters doesn't add much to the game. Statistically, if you use 5 different statblocks in every combat for 10 combats per level over 10 levels (roughly the amount of time people spend playing a campaign according to Mearls), you use only 500 unique stat blocks (with even distribution over those 10 levels no less). That's less than two monster manuals, let alone tricks like reskinning, modding, templating, and ability swapping.

To an extent, sure. But then as a publisher you're going to have to start guessing at to what creatures most of the public wants. And then you'll start getting a bored community, if all you have for first level characters are kobolds. It really should be quantity with quality, but do agree that often this is not the case.

It's not my job as a DM to sit alone in my bedroom and carefully hand-craft an entire night's adventure from a few statblocks and my own chutzpah.

It's my job as a DM to run an active D&D game, and that means filling in the blanks for me, or at least giving me something like MadLibs so I can fill them in on the spot with a random die roll or something.

DMing, to me, is about playing the game, not preparing to play the game.

I guess it's a difference in playstyle. I used to love coming up with dungeons and populating them with monsters, then bringing it out for the next game to see how it went. So, at least for me, I would very much disagree with your statement, as that really is part of the job as a DM. It's not necessarily hand-crafting an adventure, it could be reading up on a module, or going over some monsters that you're likely to use in your next sandbox.

I don't see how you can play a game without some amount of preparation. You can't play chess without sitting down and reading the rules, and setting up the board. I suppose you could have a totally open sandbox world with nothing planned and just wing it. But I would find it disjointing if I'm playing and the GM roles on a random table and then spends a few minutes reading up on the creature and thinking about how the encounter should be. I'd have all that done beforehand, so we could just play, as you mention.

From 2E MM (All credits where credit is due):

[awesome bear fluff]

I would certainly be agreeable to this level of 'fluff' for a MM entry. It's nice to have to get a feel for the creature. I do agree that 4E, at least early on, went too minimalist on information pertaining to each creature, and often in the wrong direction. Tactics are sort of handy, but I'll play a creature how I want to, not how the flow-chart tells me. And Lore is often useless or far too specific.

I wouldn't want sample lairs for each bear, though, and further extrapolations on the surrounding wilderness and wildlife found there, as that will like mean intead of getting Brown, Cave and Polar bears, I'd just get Brown and Cave bears.

I would approve of a Bearinomicon where multiple lairs could be presented, as well as new bears like the Black and Grizzly.
 

Grimmjow

First Post
By no means do we need an entry for each color of a dragon for every single age category. It's ridiculous and takes up way too much space.

What I want is a standard entry for a dragon of each age category. Then, at the beginning or the end of the dragon section we'd have a small subsection dedicated to what abilities each color has and some insight into how they behave, and that's it. The differences between the different colored dragons shouldn't take more than a page.

i agree just a picture and the powers they gain or lose as they age and maybe a picture of the any dragon would be enough
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
fenriswolf456 said:
It sounds like most of your encounters are random, so I'm not sure why it's important for the game to tell you how to use them, since you'll have to work to make it fit to the context of the game. Though I can see such information at least giving you ideas as to what would happen if the party comes across a manticore lair, say.

Take, for example, the blue dragon's illusion-based spell like abilities. These abilities are important to me because they help me run a blue dragon who is difficult to find -- illusions and mirages make the party wander for days in the desert. In the desert. This implies how the dragon is felt beyond the combat encounter: it is a plotting creature that toys with people, slowly starving them and driving them mad with thirst over the course of days. This is key Interaction and Exploration stuff: exploration because the survival in the desert becomes part of the dragon's challenge. Interaction because the psychology of the creature -- the delight it receives from the evil it performs -- gives a better idea about how to play it, as arrogant and manipulative.

It's not trivia, it's not supplemental information, it's part and parcel of what going up against a blue dragon should mean in D&D. It's useful at the table.

fenriswolf456 said:
True, but this hasn't really been an option until recently. And I do prefer to have more than just a stat block (or line). Usually the big selling point on physical MMs though is the art, since the visual impression of just what a monster looks like adds a lot to being an engaging, interesting monster.

It hasn't been an option until basically this edition, but now that it is an option, it deserves to be used well. And, FWIW, the Adventure Tools gives you an illo of the monster next to the stat block. Bears probably don't need a massive splash image, though.

fenriswolf456 said:
It would be awesome to have such information at hand. The issue is in space. You simply can't do this for a lot of monsters without sacrificing a bunch. The orc camp may be cool for the orc-lover, but if gnolls got cut out of the manual due to space, that leaves the gnoll-lover out in the cold. So a balance has to be struck at some point.

The space, in my mind, comes mostly from getting rid of the useless information for support monsters like mimics and bears and whatever.

There's also the fact that in a game with a monster creation engine (similar to the one that 4e had) doesn't NEED as many monsters. Even if you use 10 paged detailing an entry (with multiple statblocks for supporters and leaders and variants and traps), you can still fit 30 or so entries in each MM, and if each monster is useful over many levels, you can basically fit an entire campaign's worth of monsters, lairs, traps, and other critters in the MM.

Some iconic monsters may get temporarily overlooked, but with a monster creation engine, if you want to use them, you easily can.

You also avoid padding out the MM with things like swordwings and ythraks.
 

Incenjucar

Legend
That is just a freaking lot of space for them to waste if I'm planning on using the blue dragon as a random monster the PCs kill because it got in their way on way to the important NPCs, like the mimic Assassin King and his sentient bear wizard.
 
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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Incenjucar said:
That is just a freaking lot of space for them to waste if I'm planning on using the blue dragon as a random monster the PCs kill because it got in their way on way to the important NPCs, like the mimic Assassin King and his sentient bear wizard.

It's not wasted space -- every word is used to present the dragon as a multidimensional antagonist. Combat stat blocks are, contrary to early 4e design choices, not the place with the most important information.

In a game called Dungeons & Dragons it's also probably more important to have a few iconic dragon antagonists right in one of the main books than it is to have mimic kings and bear wizards.

And if you want to just plunk one down in your homebrew, well, the statblock is still there, and is still useful for you, and can be found either in the book itself, or in D&D Insider's online database, which, you may find to your delight, is almost entirely stat blocks.
 

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