Yes, the spreadsheet thing is hyperbole. It's meant to be mildly amusing. I admit it's not the height of wit, and I won't be giving up my day job, but it was just a joke.
Time to bring back the prose?
Yes, the spreadsheet thing is hyperbole. It's meant to be mildly amusing. I admit it's not the height of wit, and I won't be giving up my day job, but it was just a joke.
Alan Shutko
Explorer
Preparing for the game is also fun. And it's something you have to do before the game, so you should make it as fun as possible.
If the books are uninspiring, then only the people who are already playing the game will manage to pick their way through them. That's not a good route to growing the hobby.
Incenjucar
Legend
While it would be awesome for more powers to have official minis, I use what's available. My invoker's Offering of Love (Offering of Justice with the numbers filed off) is represented by an Angel of Desire, who holds out one hand for temp HP out, while hiding a clawed Rakshasa-style hand behind her back, which she plunged into the hearts of those who refuse her offer of love. Often, after the power has done its thing, she sticks around and makes comments, often scolding the invoker for making her offer love to undead abominations and such.
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/381251_10150494452440359_661385358_10888608_668244759_n.jpg
This is the kind of stuff that happens when you encourage reflavoring things. I could go on for pages on the various great flavor tweaks I've seen in the two groups I'm involved in.
Bedrockgames
Legend
The game is a lot of things. For me it includes reading the books, getting psyched by the text, character creation, etc. As a gm the game also includes prep. The fact is the game very much depends on the prep as well.
For me the intellectual effort that goes into reading well written rule books pays dividends at the table.
I can certainly understand if concise descriptions and stat block formats help you at the table. But try to understand for others they are a detriment. There isn't a one true way here (and anyone who believes theor is is ignoring or dismissing the diversity of opinion here). Unfortunately they can ony write one set of core books so they will have to pick a path. But that doesn't mean one camp is misguided and other on the righteous path.
Bedrockgames
Legend
Exactly. Believe it or not some of us really like the prep and the reading. We love the playing as well, and see the interplay between the two as critical. For me D&D has never been a pick up game. It has always been one that involves a little time investment before the campaign by all parties involved.
Crazy Jerome
First Post
That's why I'm sitting square in the middle on this question. The problem with 3E (and some earlier spells) is that the flavor text isn't flavor text. It's a bloody stat block written out in prose. The problem with 4E spells, however, is that they they only fixed half this problem. They said, "Hey, there isn't actually any flavor in this text that isn't already communicated in a good stat block or by assuming the DM can handle legal questions. So let's just have a stat block." So then when they made up some flavor to replace it, it was both sparse and lame. Worse, not infrequently it gives the impression that the spell does more than it does.
What I'd like to see is some flavorful prose that is necessary, mainly because the spell goes outside what can be communicated in a simple stat block. That implies some rules effects from the information, adjudicated by a DM where necessary.
Legalese and prose stat blocks are not flavor. They are merely presentation. I get that some people like the presentation. What I'd like is some real flavor.
Tallifer
Hero
That makes no sense at all to me.
If I want to play a Paladin in basic Labyrinth Lord, I just roll a cleric and write Paladin on the top of the sheet. Better that than be forced to roleplay a class (the armoured mace-wielding cleric) which I personally consider completely alien to mediaeval fantasy.
If want to play a hard-hitting Friar in D&D with a heavy shod staff and some light healing (just like from my favourite on-line game dark Age of Camelot), I can just roll a Hybrid Avenger Cleric and refluff the Greataxe into a Heavy Shod Staff. No rule changes necessary, no hassles for me or the dungeon master.
Reskinning is elegant and solves all the problems of artificial mechanical and meta-gaming restraints.
RPG_Tweaker
Explorer
OP: Literature or textbook?
I'd prefer to see a hybrid.
A bit of literary Gygaxian prose, perhaps in the opening descriptive paragraphs of major sections. A little something to add a touch of inspiring flavor; to acknowledge the roleplaying aspect of the game.
But for the main body; the meat of the rules, I am for clear and concise language that conveys rules data without ambiguity; the acknowledgement of the rollplaying aspect of the game.
I'd prefer to see a hybrid.
A bit of literary Gygaxian prose, perhaps in the opening descriptive paragraphs of major sections. A little something to add a touch of inspiring flavor; to acknowledge the roleplaying aspect of the game.
But for the main body; the meat of the rules, I am for clear and concise language that conveys rules data without ambiguity; the acknowledgement of the rollplaying aspect of the game.
Fair enough - but in your post you suggested that those who want the books to be easy to reference aren't putting in the requisite intellectual effort. And that something about that desire saddens you. That's a judgement too.
In my view this whole discussion ties into something that came up over a year ago on the "How 4e could have been more popular" thread - that Pathfinder has captured the "completist" market that WotC used to own.
Are RPG books for reading, or for playing from? These are different activities, and put different demands on a book.
I agree that prep is important. But what does "this spell induces a magical slumber in 4HD of humanoids" add to prep? A vibe?
It's a long time since I've played pick up D&D. But I don't see what "this spell induces a magical slumber in 4HD of humanoids" adds to my time investment before a campaign. As opposed, for example, to thinking about PC backgrounds and loyalties, how these fit into the history and mythology of the gameworld, etc.
Even when it comes to preparation, I find that 4e's statblocks - especially the monster stat blocks (spells and other powers are the players' business, not mine) - are great, because they give me a terrific idea of how the creature will play. Whereas there is nothing more frustrating than a whole wall of flavour text that the stats don't back up (eg something is described as feared and fearsome but it plays as a walkover).
And as far as growing the hobby is concerned, is "This spell induces magical slumber in 4HD of humanoids" really the way to do it? B/X D&D had more sparse statblocks and descriptions than AD&D, for example, and it doesn't seem to have done that game any harm in its popularity.
Sure. And if they write the rules that you and Morrus want I won't be saddened, I'll just be less likely to play it.
Sure, I've got no problem with that. Sounds like a good game, provided that the "flavour" fits into some broader contex for adjudication in the way I talked about upthread.
In the case of Hallucinatory Terrain, for example, it would be good to have some advice on how it can change initiative/surprise (ie ambush mechanics), or evasion, or Stealth, etc. That advice could be in the spell description, but personally I'd rather that the spell hook into more general rules and advice. (I'm thinking about, say, BW's positioning rules and the way fictional positioning feeds into them.)
Bedrockgames
Legend
.
They are for both. You read them and play them. Might as well make the reading part of it fun, especially when lots of us enjoy reading spell descriptions.
You were the one that conncected prose spell descriptions to pre and I was cmmenting on the importance of prep. I think this sliver of an example you provide is a straw man so I won't comment on it directly. But I will say a well written spell description that weaves prose and mechanics holds my interest more than a stat block and single line of text (it also helps me understand the spell better as I just find the info easier to absorb). In addition it is a pleasure to read and gets me excited about possible uses of the spell. The 4e entries on the other hand left me pretty unresponsive.
Again not going to comment on the example you here for the above reason, but I enjoy reading through the spell descriptions when I am prepping an adventure (and again you brought up prep). Whether I am making an evil wizard and want to choose his spells carefully or deciding on some clever uses for spells or wards in the game (or finding a spell that could itself provide an adventure) reading the descriptions, and having more than a single line of text is important to me.
You are talking about two different issues here. The first We just disagree on. I want the "wall" of text during prep. The stat block does very little for me. This is just preference.
Mechanics supporting the flavor is important. Though I suspect we just have different experiences with earlier editions (as I found the mechanics generally supported the flavor just fine). I also find the way 4e achieves this off putting.
Again this is kind of a straw man. I don't know, AD&D is when the game really took off (basic always kind of lagged behind AD&D in popularity (though i have to say I did like rules encyclopedia). I could be wrong, but my experience running playtests and dealing wigh readers tells me prose is critical when you want people to maintain interest in a book and understand the mechanics.
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