D&D 5E The Next Generation

Hey, old people.

And yes, I'm talking to you.

I've been tooling around on EN World for a long time, now. I've been immersed in gaming culture for far longer than I'd like to admit.

One thing that jumps out at me, from all this talk of the next edition of D&D, is talk about the fiction that should inform it. From talk about the kinds of art that should be included, to the stories that should inspire its mechanics - the kinds of stories the players grew up on should be considered, when looking at a game.

That is an entirely understandable sentiment. After all, you want a game that can do Conan, and Elric, and Frodo, right? Those are the kinds of stories you grew up on. The kinds of things that drew you to gaming in the first place.

So now I'm going to tell you that you need to go step back, and - in essence - go away.

Your stories aren't relevant anymore. I'm sorry that this has happened, but it has. I have met no one in my age group that has heard of the Dying Earth series, and yet D&D's default casting system is based upon Vance's work. The only reason I'm aware of the guy is because I spend far too much of my time on gaming forums, studying the history of gaming and what-not. I've never read his works, and, honestly, I don't care to.

The same thing can be said for Conan, for Frodo, for the Gray Mouser, for... whatever else traditional sources you can name for D&D. I know there's all kinds of sources, all kinds of books and what-not that no doubt innumerable people that frequent these forums can toss at me.

It doesn't matter anymore.

The old guard needs to start giving way to the new, at some point. Perhaps now is that point. I don't want mechanics steeped in the old, anymore. I want a game that can give me things like what I've seen in the Redwall series, in Last Airbender, in anime like Cowboy Bebop and Samurai Champloo. We've got to be able to follow the style of things like Harry Potter, because that is today's fiction, today's stories, the things my generation is familiar with.

Maybe this post is coming off as harsh, and I'm sorry for that. But I've been thinking about this, and it just seems reasonable to me that gaming needs to understand that the environment in which it was born is changing, and that it needs to change with it to stay relevant. Because if game designers keep talking about Elric and Frodo and Conan... you're going to lose people, and the next generation of would-be gamers aren't going to care. Talking about the old stories and the old lore demonstrates an unwillingness to recognize cultural change, and if you aren't willing to accommodate new takes on fantasy, then you risk becoming irrelevant.

If the next edition of D&D can't do Last Airbender or Harry Potter, then what incentive does the next generation of gamers have to pick it up?

There is a quick reply that I can make to your advice about taking D&D to the next generation.
This reply is: "who cares about next generation?".
I explain myself. I think that D&D like other roleplayinggames, is a product of niche. We have to admit that now, this game is sold at adults, if not old people. They began with D&D, and most of them continued to play that game, in one edition or another.
Trying to sell at boys and girls is useless. They'll continue to play videogames, because (sorry guys) they are a lot better!
So, let's evolve and improve OUR best game until we could play it. I think that it could be for other 40 years or so...
New young fans are welcome, but I like to play a game for people of my age (30-40), and I would like to improve it, thinking at our tastes, and not at tastes of people of newer generations.
There is a lot that can be done to improve our game, but I think "talking at new generations" no to be the best choice. They would snob it anyway...

Fair enough, but the last good fantasy movies I saw were "Pathfinder" and "Black Death". I heard about Game of Thrones but have yet to see it. Merlin on the BBC..

In other words, people haven't been producing a lot of television and movies as they did when your elders were younger.

People are still drawing Conan, Red Sonja comics so it is very relevant to designing 5th edition.

We are in no way dismissing RPG video games. I'm playing these too along with you younglings.

As far as adding Harry Potter type elements to the game, I'm all for it. But you've got to change the name and the spell descriptions because of copy right issues.

I am one of the older people and I am glad the OP made this thread. Because you are (obviously) right, D&DN needs to consider an array of inspiration broader than pre 1970s fantasy fiction! In fact when I read the OP I realised that I have not read any new fantasy fiction for about 10 years. I blame my job and children...

I also made me think about the age of the design team for D&DN is there any young blood in this team? I think Mearls (and Monte when he was in the building) are in their 40s but I have no idea about the rest of the team.

Well whippersnapper its us old farts that have the money. When your generation has the dough and the influence to guide the market direction of something you love guess what? You will then be an old fart too complaining about how kids these days don't understand.

That is the circle of life.

Me being younger than the average ENWorlder but not quite young enough to be the subject of this thread (26), my perspective is this:

There are a fair number of things brought up on these forums that I don't recognize. I've never heard of someone actually reading Dying Earth or Elric or this Gray Mouser character. However, the influence of LotR is still dominant (no less so with more movies coming out). Lovecraft, another standby, is probably more popular today than in D&D's early days. D&D is full of anachronisms, but it's not so much because the fiction that influences it has changed. The really big new fantasy influence is Game of Thrones, which has influence down to all but the really young demographic. People like their fiction R-rated, and they like it to feel real.

What's really changed, though, is the information age. If some question in the game comes up about what can or should happen, a player whips out a smartphone and googles the issue. This means that the rules and the DM's decisions are subject to a much higher level of scrutiny than they used to be.

So I don't think the big issue is being able to do kid's fiction, or making the game simpler, I think the big issue for the younger crowd is making a set of rules that is more realistic, both to follow the trend of naturalistic genre fiction in the last decade, but also because people have a much better idea of what realistic is. The other big thing is combatting the rules lawyers with rules that are consistent and balanced. Certainly, the hostility I see from the older crowd regarding these ideas is very telling as to why we are where we are. Certainly, the current version of the game is not reaching the younger demographic, and with good reason.

If you want to attract preteens, then you do have to start thinking about simplicity and being able to model Harry Potter. But if you want to attract teenagers and college students, what you need is (ironically) a more adult set of rules.

I'm 38, started on AD&D2E and supporter of roleplaying games as build on pure imagination.

From LOTR to Game of Thrones or Avatar or Harry Potter or My Little Poney.

I don't care if the aim is to hit grognards or teens, this game must be able to run it all.

Hello.

Like Ahnehnois, I'm 26 and not quite sure wether I am to be considered a young one.

Now, this might be because I've been living with tabletop gaming from a relatively young age (starting warhammer 40k at a tender 9 years will do that to you), even though I started "proper" roleplaying with 3.0 only 10 years ago.

But I absolutely disagree with you. I feel D&D needs to remain true to it's rich history and relatively stable core elements.

While D&D has always tried include modern popular works, doing so belongs in the realm of suplements and optional content.

My reasons for thinking thus are simple:

1. I feel in the end, we all win by having a core that is mostly an evergreen. Throwing out D&Ds traditions and history, we spit on a great number of worthwhile developements and the idea of a common base. Without that common ground for newcomers and old dogs, we loose something that I love about D&D. Learning from each other. The things I've learned from those older gamers having invaluable not only for my gaming, but my life and personal developement. And hopefully, I've contributed my own stuff too.

2. There's a lot of new and shiny stuff I like as influence in my D&D, but it's not at all your new and shiny stuff. One Piece, Naruto and Berserk don't mesh well with all you cited. The same is true for Mass Effect, Perditio Street Station and Murakami books.

Your "new and shiny" is my "Meh" (well, except Cowboy Beebop). I wouldn't play a game that only wants to emulate it.

I have been playing Dnd for 25 years. BECMI, 1E, 2E, 3.X and now 4 (shudder).

I understand the OP's point but I have this to say: if you want me to buy the game, I have to like it.

Therefore, you must cater to MY tastes.

Now then, maybe it is in WOTC's best interest to ignore me because the younger players won't buy a game that I like.

Ok. So be it.

But I better not hear any whining about the grognards not liking the game afterwards.

D&D and the next generation

I'm 43, and I've been role-playing for 30 years. I've been fortunate enough to run and play games with people decades older and younger than me, and I hope that our hobby can thrive without generational conflict. Most of my current players are younger than me.

Dungeons & Dragons has its roots in the fantasy literature that was available in the 1970s, and the genre has indeed grown since then. Let us not forget that much of it is also based on the myths and legends of the ancient and medieval world. In addition, there's nothing wrong with incorporating elements from romantic literature of the 19th century (Ivanhoe), the pulps of the early 20th (Conan), and today's anime and videogames (Avatar/Korra).

I think the stated intent of the current designers of D&D5e/Next at Wizards of the Coast it to be more inclusive. AD&D2 (and arguably D&D3.x) may have been overly complicated, but D&D4e's emphasis on cinematic tactics clearly alienated many older fans without bringing in enough newer ones to replace them as customers. Pathfinder seems to have done a decent job of combining modern art styles with traditional customization options for Player Characters and worldbuilding -- Theseus, El Cid, and Harry Potter are all doable.

I'd like D&D5/Next to allow people to play in any style of fantasy they like, whether it's fairy tales, epic heroes, gritty sword and sorcery, alternate history, or wushu action. Every Dungeon Master, every role-player, and every group develops its own preferences, so for D&D to be commercially and critically successful, I hope that the next generation of gamers can learn from its predecessors while continuing to advance our imaginations.