When did the Fighter become "defender"?

Herschel · May 10, 2012

Imaro said:
You know, I'm curious... is there another defender class that can stop movement with their defender mechanics like the fighter can? I think this might be part of the reason for the "bodyguard" feel some people experience with the fighter.

Not all Fighters stop movement with their mechanics either, though most do. There are a number of different Defender Mechanics to allow variation in the way characters are played. Some let a monster move but then are in the monster's face whan they do move, good luck trying to stay away from an Assualt Swordmage or a Battlemind who wants to be adjacent. And try getting to a Shielding Swordmage who's taking a nerf bat to your damage numbers while engaged with someone accross the battlefield.

Heck, the actual Bodyguard-type stuff is from themes (Guardian) or there are a few powers you can choose but aren't in any way mandatory but there if you want to play that type of character.

Argyle King · May 10, 2012

Bedrockgames said:
If that is your metric I think the argument is probably on sounder ground than some of the other claims people have made about fighters. Now I am only familiar with the PHB, DMG and MM (since I never bothered with the other books) and my understanding is things did improve with some of the later releases. But I found this very hard to do the times I made a 4E fighter. I am no master builder when it comes to 4E, but the few times I did make and play fighters I found their DPS generally behind the strikers (which seems to make sense since that is the purpose of the striker in the game).

I did find this thread and see some suggestions on how to address the issue, but even if there is a "can out-dps strikers here" I imagine it is probably even easier for a striker to out-perform the fighter who succeeds in this area with a an equal amount of elbow grease. On the whole it looks like people are pretty divided on this point:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-discussion/316956-advice-friends-dps-fighter.html

Without trying (I'm not a char-op guru by any means,) I've done it using nothing more than the first three books (PHB, MM, DMG) and Martial Power 1.

I'm not the best person to ask about optimizing a fighter. I usually play Warlords (who sometimes dip into fighter.) However, it's important to point out that I ended up with previous fighter characters of mine doing striker level damage without sacrificing my ability to defend the party.

Also, fighters have a lot of freedom when it comes to what secondary abilities to focus on. Different weapons use different abilities for their benefits. As such, it's unbelievably easy to multiclass into a different class or to play a half-elf right out of PHB1 and pick up an ability from a different class and have everything work perfectly fine.

Herschel · May 10, 2012

Imaro said:
. Oh, and the low-level wizard can own a fighter with Sleep and/or Color Spray, I've seen it happen in play.

IF the fighter is dumb enough to actually engage in the fight before the Wizard has cast his spells, and IF the wizard even has those spells, then it's rocket tag, not balanced PvP or conflict resolution.

Imaro · May 10, 2012

Herschel said:
Not all Fighters stop movement with their mechanics either, though most do. There are a number of different Defender Mechanics to allow variation in the way characters are played. Some let a monster move but then are in the monster's face whan they do move, good luck trying to stay away from an Assualt Swordmage or a Battlemind who wants to be adjacent. And try getting to a Shielding Swordmage who's taking a nerf bat to your damage numbers while engaged with someone accross the battlefield.

Heck, the actual Bodyguard-type stuff is from themes (Guardian) or there are a few powers you can choose but aren't in any way mandatory but there if you want to play that type of character.

Sorry I didn't mean to give the impression that I didn't know about the different defender mechanics in 4e. Right now I'm playing a Shielding Swordmage in a 4e game. I just wasn't certain whether the fighter was the only defender who stoped opponents movement. This just seems to create less incentive for the fighter to move than any other character once he's taken up position, and IMO, adds to the "bodyguard" feel of the class.

Neonchameleon · May 10, 2012

Imaro said:
You know, I'm curious... is there another defender class that can stop movement with their defender mechanics like the fighter can? I think this might be part of the reason for the "bodyguard" feel some people experience with the fighter.

If a player wants to use that ability in an optimally tactical way he doesn't get to just run off into the fray and fight whoever he wants while leaving the squishier party members open to enemies that can now get around him. He probably positions himself as a sort of "bodyguard" in a way that allows him to block enemies from getting to the other party members. Do the mechanics force this... no. Do they encourage it... in many combat situations I would say yes.

The above IMO makes as much sense as saying "If the wizard wants to use his Magic Missile ability in optimal way he's never going to cast any other combat spells but instead keep spamming Magic Missile." Combat Superiority is one of multiple abilities a Fighter has on his sheet. And one that means that the enemies have an incredibly hard time escaping from the fighter as well as running past him.

For that matter, to use Combat Superiority you need to be adjacent to the enemy. Holding a choke point or just walking up to them and bashing them. Hanging back next to the wizard won't put you in a position to trigger it - it will just leave the front line crippled.

Imaro · May 10, 2012

Herschel said:
IF the fighter is dumb enough to actually engage in the fight before the Wizard has cast his spells, and IF the wizard even has those spells, then it's rocket tag, not balanced PvP or conflict resolution.

See it's all those If's that do make it fun for some people.

Dausuul · May 10, 2012

Imaro said:
If a player wants to use that ability in an optimally tactical way he doesn't get to just run off into the fray and fight whoever he wants while leaving the squishier party members open to enemies that can now get around him. He probably positions himself as a sort of "bodyguard" in a way that allows him to block enemies from getting to the other party members. Do the mechanics force this... no. Do they encourage it... in many combat situations I would say yes.

If you want to use your movement-stopping abilities in an optimal way, leaping into the fray is absolutely the way to do it. If you hang back, you allow the enemy to keep their distance and maneuver around you. Charging into the biggest clump of foes lets you force the issue.

The 4E fighter is a black hole. Anything that gets within her 1-square event horizon can never escape. So which is harder to get around: A black hole that sits there waiting for you to come to it, or a black hole that chases you down?

Imaro · May 10, 2012

Neonchameleon said:
The above IMO makes as much sense as saying "If the wizard wants to use his Magic Missile ability in optimal way he's never going to cast any other combat spells but instead keep spamming Magic Missile." Combat Superiority is one of multiple abilities a Fighter has on his sheet. And one that means that the enemies have an incredibly hard time escaping from the fighter as well as running past him.

This makes no sense as an analogy... you're comparing one 1st level spell to one of the Fighter's class abilities.

Neonchameleon said:
For that matter, to use Combat Superiority you need to be adjacent to the enemy. Holding a choke point or just walking up to them and bashing them. Hanging back next to the wizard won't put you in a position to trigger it - it will just leave the front line crippled.

IMO, This also makes no sense. Combat Challenge and Superiority work better when you're in the vicinity of other PC's... not when you're off on your own trying to be a striker.

IME If the fighter isn't close to one of his allies then he isn't making the monster use up extra movement and/or stopping him (via Combat Superiority) form attacking said allies (you know, his job)... and he also isn't making the monster choose between taking the -2 and an extra attack by him vs. a squishier opponent and lower AC (via Combat Challenge).

Now I guess if the DM always clumps a bunch of monsters together then yeah it's great to go running into the crowd... or if your DM always provides a choke point then yes by all means take it, but these aren't factors the fighter controls.

Imaro · May 10, 2012

Dausuul said:
If you want to use your movement-stopping abilities in an optimal way, leaping into the fray is absolutely the way to do it. If you hang back, you allow the enemy to keep their distance and maneuver around you. Charging into the biggest clump of foes lets you force the issue.

The 4E fighter is a black hole. Anything that gets within her 1-square event horizon can never escape. So which is harder to get around: A black hole that sits there waiting for you to come to it, or a black hole that chases you down?

You are prescribing environment... what clump (with most fighters having average to low dexterity there's no guarantee he acts first and goes charging into a conveniently formed clump of enemies)? IME, the fighter hangs back while our controller and archery ranger rain death down on the monsters. Now the monsters can try to maneuver around the fighter (which they inevitably do) but he's staying within the vicinity of these two and stoppng that from happening with... Combat Superiority and Combat Challenge.

Argyle King · May 10, 2012

Imaro said:
This makes no sense as an analogy... you're comparing one 1st level spell to one of the Fighter's class abilities.

IMO, This also makes no sense. Combat Challenge and Superiority work better when you're in the vicinity of other PC's... not when you're off on your own trying to be a striker.

IME If the fighter isn't close to one of his allies then he isn't making the monster use up extra movement and/or stopping him (via Combat Superiority) form attacking said allies (you know, his job)... and he also isn't making the monster choose between taking the -2 and an extra attack by him vs. a squishier opponent and lower AC (via Combat Challenge).

Now I guess if the DM always clumps a bunch of monsters together then yeah it's great to go running into the crowd... or if your DM always provides a choke point then yes by all means take it, but these aren't factors the fighter controls.

um... Come and Get It

When did the Fighter become "defender"?

Herschel

Adventurer

Argyle King

Legend

Herschel

Adventurer

Imaro

Legend

Neonchameleon

Legend

Imaro

Legend

Dausuul

Legend

Imaro

Legend

Imaro

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Argyle King

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