Have you heard about the "Pathfinder Online Technology Demo" Kickstarter?

Keefe the Thief · May 13, 2012

While i normally wish Pathfinder all the best and admire them for their cool ideas, this is, well, bad. It's one step further towards "kickstarter for hiring a dude to create a portfolio depicting our cool idea".

The core concept of creative work is this: Ideas are cheap. Everybody has them. Making ideas happen is what is important, and Goblinworks has 0 credentials for that in the MMO space.

What kind of investment company gives you funding for "a couple of thousand of our hardcore fans gave us money for a pitch video"?

Dannager · May 14, 2012

Keefe the Thief said:
While i normally wish Pathfinder all the best and admire them for their cool ideas, this is, well, bad. It's one step further towards "kickstarter for hiring a dude to create a portfolio depicting our cool idea".

Then don't fund it. It's a Kickstarter. Everyone funding it knows what they're funding.

The core concept of creative work is this: Ideas are cheap. Everybody has them. Making ideas happen is what is important, and Goblinworks has 0 credentials for that in the MMO space.

Goblinworks has 0 credentials for anything - they're a brand new company and this is their first project. Goblinworks employees, on the other hand, have at least some credentials for making ideas happen in the MMO space. It's silly to ignore that, so don't.

What kind of investment company gives you funding for "a couple of thousand of our hardcore fans gave us money for a pitch video"?

They don't. They give you money for the strength of your idea, your human capital, your research, and the first steps you've taken on your own. The tech demo allows them to show their idea off to investors without it being nothing more than, "Hey, we've got this idea."

Really, this is a fund-it-or-don't situation. Stop whining about it. If you don't think it's worth funding, don't fund it. No one is getting tricked, this isn't a scam, so there really isn't any cause for decrying it or complaining about it.

Feeroper · May 14, 2012

Im pretty surprised at all the heat they are taking for this. They have been pretty straightforward with what this is, and have given potential backers a look behind the curtain to show exactly what they intend. I appreciate that there are those who dont think this is a good idea, but Im shocked at some of the hostility. To my understanding, they are not diverting any resources out of the tabletop game and into the MMO. I imagine you could just safely ignore the MMO completely if its not your thing. If it IS your thing and you just dont want to fund a tech demo, then just wait it out. If the game becomes a reality then you can throw your dollars at it if you want and get an actual finished product.

Cergorach · May 14, 2012

MichaelSomething said:
Update number three confirms that the Kickstarter project is really more of a marketing tool then fundraising for a project. However, they are not the first people who done it that way. Steve Jackson's Orge board game was done on Kickstarter even though he could have easy printed it out himself without going for outside help.

Whoa! Ogre is a whole different beast, the game is quite expensive to produce as it was presented and it was priced relatively low ($100 isn't cheap, but it is compared to what it costs to produce). So the investment upfront would be huge and they didn't know how many they would need to make, as any indication of how many fans there would be willing to fork over $100 for a very old boardgame. They ended up with 5700+ preorder copies and in return they improved the game components and gave you extra swag. That is imho a very good give and take from both the publisher and the gaming community. The same is true for Zombicide, more preorders resulted in lower cost per item and they gave back to the backers by adding more stuff to the game the backers preordered.

I have no issue with using the marketing aspects of kickstarter, but I have a problem with using ONLY the marketing aspects of kickstarter for your own gain...

Feeroper said:
Im pretty surprised at all the heat they are taking for this. They have been pretty straightforward with what this is, and have given potential backers a look behind the curtain to show exactly what they intend. I appreciate that there are those who dont think this is a good idea, but Im shocked at some of the hostility. To my understanding, they are not diverting any resources out of the tabletop game and into the MMO. I imagine you could just safely ignore the MMO completely if its not your thing. If it IS your thing and you just dont want to fund a tech demo, then just wait it out. If the game becomes a reality then you can throw your dollars at it if you want and get an actual finished product.

I think your confusing hostility with critique.

Straightforward? Did you know that they wouldn't be using the Pathfinder rules for the MMO? That's buried somewhere on the site in a FAQ, pretty important information imho if your interested in a PF MMO. Those posted bios might be appropriate in b2b setting, but using them to 'charm' fans is imho a bit... Yuck!

My problem with the project is that they aren't diverting enough money from Paizo to the MMO and are now using fans to soak the investment for a Tech demo. Paizo has of course already spent money on the project, they are one of the founders of Goblinworks.

Dice4Hire · May 14, 2012

That is a good question. Why cannot Paizo afford to do this with their own funds?

GMforPowergamers · May 14, 2012

Dice4Hire said:
That is a good question. Why cannot Paizo afford to do this with their own funds?

Especialy since they claim to be the best selling RPG...

IronWolf · May 14, 2012

Dice4Hire said:
That is a good question. Why cannot Paizo afford to do this with their own funds?

My understanding is that Goblinworks is a separate company that simply has the license to use Pathfinder material in their video game. They do have some overlap in ownership in companies, but Paizo the company does not own Goblinworks. They simply license Pathfinder material.

It is wise to treat the companies as two separate entities. Paizo is an RPG company, they make RPGs. Goblinworks is a video game company who makes video games and is licensed to use Pathfinder content.

But for accounting purposes and how the companies are setup it probably doesn't matter how much profit or cash on hand Paizo has as it is separate from Goblinworks, they are not the one and the same from the business perspective.

I suspect Paizo's primary interest is in maintaining their momentum in the world of RPGs (as it should be). While they have interest in seeing the success of the video game they provide licensing to, that doesn't mean they should or will pull from the profits of one company to pay the other start-up company.

Matt James · May 14, 2012

It mitigates risk to Paizo, which is a good thing. Goblinworks can rise and fall on it's own merits.

I'm not investing in it, but I am looking forward to the demo. As I said, I need to see what's going to make this any different than the other slew of MMOs. Personally, I like cool sub-systems and unique play opportunities. It needs to draw me in with more than questing, killing, raiding, and tradecraft. Some type of oomph is needed.

Cergorach · May 14, 2012

IronWolf said:
They do have some overlap in ownership in companies, but Paizo the company does not own Goblinworks.

Euhm... No:

What's the relationship between Goblinworks and Paizo Publishing?

Goblinworks has an exclusive worldwide license from Paizo to create an MMO using Paizo's Pathfinder property. Paizo is a founding owner of Goblinworks, and is providing operational support to Goblinworks. Lisa Stevens is a founding owner of both Goblinworks and Paizo, as well as the CEO of Paizo and the COO of Goblinworks.

Yes, it's a separate company, but that is probably to isolate liability. Goblinworks can go chapter 11 without taking the rest of Paizo with it. They also need a license of course otherwise they couldn't produce a game based on another's IP...

IronWolf · May 14, 2012

Cergorach said:
\
Yes, it's a separate company, but that is probably to isolate liability. Goblinworks can go chapter 11 without taking the rest of Paizo with it. They also need a license of course otherwise they couldn't produce a game based on another's IP...

Ah - you are right. Many of my previous points stand though. The isolation of companies to let succeed or fail on their own with minimal impact to the other.