Elephant in the room: rogue and fighter dailies.

I'm A Banana · May 26, 2012

Martial dalies are not so much wrong as they are rather unnecessary. You don't have to have a unified structure to have balance. In fact, for a lot of folks, a unified structure is a negative (sameness! kludging! unrealistic!), so you're better off embracing a diversity.

Play the fighter. Are you bored? Does 5e's looser stunt structure help you feel unencumbered, or do you feel like you can't do anything because there's not big colorful boxes telling you specifically that you can? Do we maybe need to put more of that into the player's hands and leave less up to pure DM fiat?

Play it. Keep honest track of what you do during the game. If all you do is roll attacks, then clearly SOMETHING went wrong in the design.

I'm actually a little surprised that no one is talking about all the things that the fighter can do that are NOT combat related. Intimidate and Survival and Endurance...these dudes are not just single-pillar sword-swingers, and given the design of the Caves of Chaos (which can easily turn against someone who just charges in), I'd think these abilities would feature in more heavily and thus add some variety to gameplay.

Tallifer · May 26, 2012

ferratus said:
Yeah, but people rest when the wizard is out of spells (at least more often then not) so it amounts to the same thing. Even if it is presented that way in the book, in practice Vancian spells are often abilities you do every round.

Not under any dungeon masters whom I have known, but I have heard of such five-minute unionized wizards before. We just never tolerated their whines. Heh.

I liked how the Fourth Edition rewarded continuous adventuring through Milestones and the resultant extra Action Points and uses of Daily Magical Items.

Obryn · May 26, 2012

I want both.

I want the complex Fighter with deep tactical options baked into the class. I also want the simple hack-fest Fighter. Post-Essentials, I'm getting this with 4e, which is kind of awesome; it's the best of all worlds.

I don't see why we can't have this for Next just as easily. Modular design, folks. WotC should provide both, and let the players and gamemasters decide what they want to implement. Ahnenonis could have his non-daily-limited Fighters, and Neonchameleon could have Fighters with choices like spellcasters. There's is absolutely zero reason these have to be mutually exclusive.

Would that honestly be a dealbreaker for anyone? The fact that there are other people out there who could be using Fighters differently from you while ostensibly running the same game system? That there are optional rules which aren't to your taste?

I expect Next to have a simple core. That probably includes simple Fighters, and I'm fine with that. I don't think it's worthwhile getting hung up on what's in the core book if there are going to be supplements coming out which fix the issue.

-O

ferratus · May 26, 2012

Tallifer said:
Not under any dungeon masters whom I have known, but I have heard of such five-minute unionized wizards before. We just never tolerated their whines. Heh.

Usually the healing runs out first anyway, and then everyone wants to rest. DM's like to push, but PC's usually come up with strategies to avoid it, or ignore the collateral damage of waiting. (What? They completed the ritual while we were resting in the rope trick and summoned Hastur to reign over us in undending darkness? Oh well, spilled milk. I attack it.

)

I liked how the Fourth Edition rewarded continuous adventuring through Milestones and the resultant extra Action Points and uses of Daily Magical Items.

My dislike of daily powers extends to magic items, but I did indeed like action points through milestones. Something more plot significant would have been better though, rather than just every two encounters.

RSKennan · May 26, 2012

What if you could activate fighter's surges when you had advantage, instead of the extra die? The extra die would just get time-shifted a half round.

It would fit with the rogue's sneak attack ability.

It might help to even out the issue with casters without nerfing them.

Olgar Shiverstone · May 27, 2012

Any thoughts on rogue Sneak attack scaling? +1d6 per level seems a bit much, particularly if there are lots of ways to gain advantage. Of course we don't know if that scaling continues past level 3, but still -- the rogue looks to outshine the fighter, particularly given that his defenses equal the fighter (light armor plus dex basically equals or exceeds heavy armor across the board ...)

B.T. · May 27, 2012

Herschel said:
So why still casting times and focus/interruption?

Because they're finishing casting the spell and if that is interrupted, the spell breaks.

Again, this explanation doesn't hold water logically, geniuses, repetition, tomes and all that. And again, what about the Fighter's magic?

Because in Vance's books, a spell was a living thing trapped within the mind of a wizard, and, once it was cast, it left his mind until he trapped it again.

As for situational feats/exploits, how does this guy ever not score . I mean he should be able to do this every play, right? It's not magic.
Jerome Simpson Touchdown Flip (HD) - YouTube

He should be able to attempt it every play, unless he has some sort of unnatural ability that grants him the capacity to do so but once per day.

Dr. Confoundo · May 27, 2012

I love 4e's AEDU setup so much that I want to take it behind the middle school and get it pregnant. I'll be very disappointed if it gets shown the door during this edition change, and will not be buying 5e.

nnms · May 27, 2012

Bobbum Man said:
5 Greatest Touchdowns of All Time

Now...somebody tell me why the athletes involved didn't do this EVERY game.

This actually illustrates both sides of the issue rather well.

One side: The touchdowns emerged out of the positioning of the players, and the incremental actions that cause the event to be described as such a great touch down after the fact. The touchdowns emerge from the choices, skill and relative positions of the athletes involved. They don't do this every game because they can only do it when the situation allows for it and it is very rare.

Other side: The touchdowns occured because they were dramatically and competitively appropriate. The quarterback used his "once a career" ability which caused everything to come together in perfect alignment to make them happen. They don't do this every game because they expended their "once a career" ability and thus everything will not come together to allow it to happen again because that would be hogging the spotlight, repetitive, and not fair.

When playing D&D I used to prefer justifying things for dramatic and game purposes, now I like emergent play. Now I get my drama focused fun from games like In A Wicked Age or Strands of Fate and want a traditional emergent exploration-description experience from my D&D (or whatever fills the space D&D used to occupy).

Holy Bovine · May 27, 2012

Herschel said:
Yet you're okay with a Wizard who has studied his spells for years repeatedly every single day suddenly forgetting it once he casts it?

What's the difference?

Magic!

Elephant in the room: rogue and fighter dailies.

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich

Tallifer

Hero

Obryn

Hero

ferratus

Adventurer

RSKennan

Explorer

Olgar Shiverstone

Legend

B.T.

First Post

Dr. Confoundo

First Post

nnms

First Post

Holy Bovine

First Post

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