Mike Mearls Discusses the First Round of Public D&D Next Playtests

Keldryn

Adventurer
Absolutely! It's cake to do things in a culture-neutral way, but they instead decided to do the ham-fisted thing. They gave them genetic knowledge of which civilization made a thing. Being a dwarf in 5E means taking an art history class in the womb.

D&D races have never been culture-neutral. The D&D races have always implied some degree of racial culture -- that's part of what makes them different from humans.

Racial traits in D&D have always been a mix of abilities which are purely biological in origin (infravision, darkvision, low-light vision, most ability score modifiers), purely a result of cultural preferences and/or training (elf bonuses to hit with sword & bow, bonus languages, defense bonuses versus particular creatures), and a few which could go either way or be a little of both (some ability score modifiers, favored classes, skill bonuses).

The "stonecunning" ability of dwarves could be entirely the result of their experience with mining and living underground while growing up. It could also be a manifestation of their connection to stone itself; some dwarven myths refer to Moradin crafting them from stone.

I just don't see the need to have racial traits only reflect purely biological differences. It's too nit-picky for my liking, and moving all of the "cultural" racial traits into character building options waters down the racial archetypes and complicates character generation.

Sure, the game should support the ability to easily swap out racial traits, so that you can have forest-dwelling dwarves who don't have stonecunning and favor swords, bows, and magic use if you really want them. The races in the basic rules should support the common racial archetypes for accessibility and ease of character generation. Culture-neutral races belong in a module for those who want more of a toolkit for world-building.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Stormonu

Legend
If you think the playtest is like 4e, then I doubt you have ever read nor played 4e. Yet I do see much of the wording from older editions, which I would rather have the 4e simple clear to understand style.

The playtest is not a reprint of OD&D either. But since D&D Next is the compromise edition, This is to be expected for the game to appeal to the masses.

Excuse me, but I have both read and played 4E. I do not like such insinuations.
 

underfoot007ct

First Post
Excuse me, but I have both read and played 4E. I do not like such insinuations.

I'm not trying to insult you, but I don't see much of 4e at all. What 4e skeleton do you see??? Any other 4e players can jump in. I'm sure most Grognards would be screaming bloody murder, if that were true.

I see bits of 4e, like healing overnight, not dying at 10, but things that make 4e 4e are just mot there. AEUD, PC HP not set by a HD, monsters with lots of powers, Kobolds with 30+ hp, Leader, Defender, Controller, striker, skills & feats I can choose, battle grid required, healing surges, action points, milestones, stats over 20+, forced movement (push, pull, slide) minor, move, standard actions, and so on. Most rules are a compromise of all editions.
 

Incenjucar

Legend
D&D races have never been culture-neutral. The D&D races have always implied some degree of racial culture -- that's part of what makes them different from humans.

Racial traits in D&D have always been a mix of abilities which are purely biological in origin (infravision, darkvision, low-light vision, most ability score modifiers), purely a result of cultural preferences and/or training (elf bonuses to hit with sword & bow, bonus languages, defense bonuses versus particular creatures), and a few which could go either way or be a little of both (some ability score modifiers, favored classes, skill bonuses).

The "stonecunning" ability of dwarves could be entirely the result of their experience with mining and living underground while growing up. It could also be a manifestation of their connection to stone itself; some dwarven myths refer to Moradin crafting them from stone.

I just don't see the need to have racial traits only reflect purely biological differences. It's too nit-picky for my liking, and moving all of the "cultural" racial traits into character building options waters down the racial archetypes and complicates character generation.

Sure, the game should support the ability to easily swap out racial traits, so that you can have forest-dwelling dwarves who don't have stonecunning and favor swords, bows, and magic use if you really want them. The races in the basic rules should support the common racial archetypes for accessibility and ease of character generation. Culture-neutral races belong in a module for those who want more of a toolkit for world-building.

I have always considered this to be a grievous flaw in D&D. I disliked it in 2E, 3E, and 4E. It's absurd, lazy, and causes annoying if minor roleplay issues that I feel should not exist in any roleplaying game. The least they can do is make it part of the lore instead of some meta-game artifact of wanting to reinforce stereotypes.
 

tuxgeo

Adventurer
I'm not trying to insult you, but I don't see much of 4e at all. What 4e skeleton do you see??? Any other 4e players can jump in. I'm sure most Grognards would be screaming bloody murder, if that were true.

I see bits of 4e, like healing overnight, not dying at 10, but things that make 4e 4e are just mot there. AEUD, PC HP not set by a HD, monsters with lots of powers, Kobolds with 30+ hp, Leader, Defender, Controller, striker, skills & feats I can choose, battle grid required, healing surges, action points, milestones, stats over 20+, forced movement (push, pull, slide) minor, move, standard actions, and so on. Most rules are a compromise of all editions.

I'm not Stormonu, but I'll take a shot at a list of 4E influences on 5ENext so far:

- Self-healing during a short rest by everybody, which was introduced in 4E.
- Backgrounds, which were introduced in 4E PHB2. (These are one of the basic pillars of character creation in 5ENext.)
- Themes, which were introduced in 4E Dark Sun. (These are another of the basic pillars of character creation in 5ENext.)
- At-Will attacks, which were conceptually based on 3.5E "Reserve Feats"; but those Reserve Feats required that the caster (1) have a higher-level spell of the same type prepared, and (2) not cast that higher-level spell or else lose the At-Will version until the higher-level spell was prepared again. (Actual "At-Will" attacks are new with 4E.)
- Skill Training's contituting a static bonus instead of consisting of arbitrary additional skill points added per level. In 3.XE, you could keep on adding points to a skill each time you leveled up; 4E changed that to a flat numeric bonus.
- Skill Consolidation, with "Perception" subsuming Spot, Listen, and Search; and with "Stealth" subsuming Hide and Move Silently. (4E also had "Athletics" subsuming Climb, Jump, and Run, but we haven't seen that in the 5ENext playtest material yet as far as I have seen.)
- Critical Hits being automatic full damage without confirmation.
- Rituals as a class of magic castable an unspecified number of times per day, limited mainly by the availability of time and material components, not by spell slots.
- Carrying Capacity is straight out of 4E. (3.XE had a table instead; and that table included a column for Medium Load, which 5ENext doesn't mention.)

Wizards of the Coast have made it clear that other features of 4E will be available as options, but were not included in the first of the public playtests in order to test only the mechanical core of the game.
Later on, in further playtests, we will presumably see action points, and perhaps some of the other things you mentioned. Certainly we have already been told that skills and feats will be choosable by the player who wants to create his or her own Background and Theme (perhaps subject to DM approval).
 

Swick

First Post
...a list of 4E influences on 5ENext so far:

- Self-healing during a short rest by everybody, which was introduced in 4E.
- Backgrounds, which were introduced in 4E PHB2. (These are one of the basic pillars of character creation in 5ENext.)
- Themes, which were introduced in 4E Dark Sun. (These are another of the basic pillars of character creation in 5ENext.)
- At-Will attacks, which were conceptually based on 3.5E "Reserve Feats"; but those Reserve Feats required that the caster (1) have a higher-level spell of the same type prepared, and (2) not cast that higher-level spell or else lose the At-Will version until the higher-level spell was prepared again. (Actual "At-Will" attacks are new with 4E.)
- Skill Training's contituting a static bonus instead of consisting of arbitrary additional skill points added per level. In 3.XE, you could keep on adding points to a skill each time you leveled up; 4E changed that to a flat numeric bonus.
- Skill Consolidation, with "Perception" subsuming Spot, Listen, and Search; and with "Stealth" subsuming Hide and Move Silently. (4E also had "Athletics" subsuming Climb, Jump, and Run, but we haven't seen that in the 5ENext playtest material yet as far as I have seen.)
- Critical Hits being automatic full damage without confirmation.
- Rituals as a class of magic castable an unspecified number of times per day, limited mainly by the availability of time and material components, not by spell slots.
- Carrying Capacity is straight out of 4E. (3.XE had a table instead; and that table included a column for Medium Load, which 5ENext doesn't mention.)

What!? 4e in a game where the designers promised to include aspect from ALL editions! I thought they were lying and this edition would be a repudiation of 4e. :p
 

Keldryn

Adventurer
I have always considered this to be a grievous flaw in D&D. I disliked it in 2E, 3E, and 4E. It's absurd, lazy, and causes annoying if minor roleplay issues that I feel should not exist in any roleplaying game. The least they can do is make it part of the lore instead of some meta-game artifact of wanting to reinforce stereotypes.

From my perspective, it's a strength, not a flaw.

I'm strongly in favor of archetypal roles in RPGs, particularly in D&D. My gaming groups tend to have a roughly 50/50 split between dedicated players and casual players (usually spouses). The traditional D&D archetypes tend to match up reasonably well with what a non-gamer would expect, based on their exposure to legends, fantasy movies, and fantasy literature. It's an easy point of reference for getting into the game quickly. There was a purpose in narrowly defining the non-human races in such a way.

Diverse elven cultures work well in Elfquest, for example, because the elves are the point of reference in that story. Humans are basically all just primitive savages, at least until Kings of the Broken Wheel.

There is certainly a place for culture-neutral racial design in D&D, but I don't think that place is in the core rules. The core rules of DDN should embrace the common fantasy archetypes (or stereotypes, if you prefer), so that a new player can figure out the game and be playing in a short period of time. There's plenty of room in the modular expansions to allow for more flexible non-stereotyped races. I would much rather not have the core rules cluttered with statements about how "this race can have features X, Y, or Z, depending on his or her cultural background; assume the default of X if you wish to play an archetypal member of this race."

Keep the core rules light, clean, and focused on common fantasy archetypes. Embrace common fantasy stereotypes, as they make it easy to get into the game with a minimal amount of exposition and character creation choices. Have advanced modules ready on Day One so that the players who desire more detail and flexibility can have it.
 

Incenjucar

Legend
From my perspective, it's a strength, not a flaw.

I'm strongly in favor of archetypal roles in RPGs, particularly in D&D. My gaming groups tend to have a roughly 50/50 split between dedicated players and casual players (usually spouses). The traditional D&D archetypes tend to match up reasonably well with what a non-gamer would expect, based on their exposure to legends, fantasy movies, and fantasy literature. It's an easy point of reference for getting into the game quickly. There was a purpose in narrowly defining the non-human races in such a way.

Diverse elven cultures work well in Elfquest, for example, because the elves are the point of reference in that story. Humans are basically all just primitive savages, at least until Kings of the Broken Wheel.

There is certainly a place for culture-neutral racial design in D&D, but I don't think that place is in the core rules. The core rules of DDN should embrace the common fantasy archetypes (or stereotypes, if you prefer), so that a new player can figure out the game and be playing in a short period of time. There's plenty of room in the modular expansions to allow for more flexible non-stereotyped races. I would much rather not have the core rules cluttered with statements about how "this race can have features X, Y, or Z, depending on his or her cultural background; assume the default of X if you wish to play an archetypal member of this race."

Keep the core rules light, clean, and focused on common fantasy archetypes. Embrace common fantasy stereotypes, as they make it easy to get into the game with a minimal amount of exposition and character creation choices. Have advanced modules ready on Day One so that the players who desire more detail and flexibility can have it.

I can only really vehemently disagree with that.

I don't feel that archetypes should become a limit, only an inspiration, including in the core game. The notion that the core game should be lock-step with generic assumptions rather than simply helpful in providing them makes no sense to me. I don't feel that the core game should be inherently absurd, with dwarves all walking like this and elves all walking like this regardless of the character's personal story. The core of the game should be simple and easy to add to, not something that has to be fixed by future modules.

It's like making Drizz't clones the default drow or ranger.
 

Keldryn

Adventurer
I can only really vehemently disagree with that.

I respect that.

I don't feel that archetypes should become a limit, only an inspiration, including in the core game. The notion that the core game should be lock-step with generic assumptions rather than simply helpful in providing them makes no sense to me. I don't feel that the core game should be inherently absurd, with dwarves all walking like this and elves all walking like this regardless of the character's personal story. The core of the game should be simple and easy to add to, not something that has to be fixed by future modules.
I don't see it as inherently absurd. It's a world where magic is real and spells work. A world where gods exist and prayers are routinely answered; some of these gods connected with specific races and are said to have created them. Law, chaos, good, and evil are universal forces with real effects in the world. Matter in the world is composed of the four elements. One could say that applying a modern perspective on nature vs. nurture is absurd, given the "realities" of a fantasy world.

Imagine a dwarf, born in a forest when his parents were fleeing the destruction of their home. His father died in the battle, and his mother was mortally wounded. The orphaned dwarf was taken in by a clan of elves. Born and raised in the forest, he has never encountered another dwarf, nor has he even seen a mountain, much less been inside one. He is trained in the use of swords and bows along with the elven youth, but the first time he picks up an axe or a hammer, it just feels right, like it was made for him. The heft of the hammer just feels more natural for his stockier frame than a delicate sword, and the longbow always felt a little awkward for his shorter stature. He isn't distrustful of magic and appreciates its uses, but doesn't quite understand the fascination that elves have with it. The feel of steel in his hand is simply more comforting. He thinks that the forest is beautiful and knows how to live off the land, but something deep in his subconscious always felt a little out-of-place in the forest. The first time he ventures into an underground complex, he feels a sense of belonging that he'd never felt before. He touches the stone walls and just feels it in his blood that this stonework is incredibly ancient. He's never formally studied architecture and doesn't know the finer details, but he intuitively understands how these structures are put together. He's a dwarf, a child of Moradin, and the connection with earth and stone is in his blood.

It's like making Drizz't clones the default drow or ranger.
I'd say it's more like making Aragorn clones the default ranger or Legolas clones the default elf. If you ask the average non-gamer to name some fantasy characters, you'll get answers like Gandalf, Gimli, Thorin, Bilbo, Frodo, Legolas, Aragorn, Harry Potter, Lord Valdemort, Merlin, King Arthur, Sir Lancelot, Conan, or Robin Hood. Maybe some heroes from Greek or Norse mythology or fairy tale characters like the Wicked Queen or even characters from Star Wars. Drizz't isn't even on the radar. Archetypes that resonate with people who have had little exposure to gaming are a good thing, in my opinion.

As long as the races in the core game are built using the same structure as those in the optional module, there isn't anything to be "fixed."

Ultimately, it might be better to have the core rules as a stand-alone "basic" product and then have Player's Handbooks for major play styles containing the core rules plus already-integrated modules. You get some repetition of content, but it eliminates the work involved in piecing together rules from multiple sources. Or simply have the old Basic/Advanced split; boxed sets aimed at new players or those who want a rules-light system, and Advanced books which have the most popular modular options seamlessly integrated. Cross-compatibility will be much better than in the 80s, as the Advanced game will truly be an extension of the basic game.
 

Incenjucar

Legend
I respect that.

And I appreciate that.

I don't see it as inherently absurd. It's a world where magic is real and spells work. A world where gods exist and prayers are routinely answered; some of these gods connected with specific races and are said to have created them. Law, chaos, good, and evil are universal forces with real effects in the world. Matter in the world is composed of the four elements. One could say that applying a modern perspective on nature vs. nurture is absurd, given the "realities" of a fantasy world.

Imagine a dwarf, born in a forest when his parents were fleeing the destruction of their home. His father died in the battle, and his mother was mortally wounded. The orphaned dwarf was taken in by a clan of elves. Born and raised in the forest, he has never encountered another dwarf, nor has he even seen a mountain, much less been inside one. He is trained in the use of swords and bows along with the elven youth, but the first time he picks up an axe or a hammer, it just feels right, like it was made for him. The heft of the hammer just feels more natural for his stockier frame than a delicate sword, and the longbow always felt a little awkward for his shorter stature. He isn't distrustful of magic and appreciates its uses, but doesn't quite understand the fascination that elves have with it. The feel of steel in his hand is simply more comforting. He thinks that the forest is beautiful and knows how to live off the land, but something deep in his subconscious always felt a little out-of-place in the forest. The first time he ventures into an underground complex, he feels a sense of belonging that he'd never felt before. He touches the stone walls and just feels it in his blood that this stonework is incredibly ancient. He's never formally studied architecture and doesn't know the finer details, but he intuitively understands how these structures are put together. He's a dwarf, a child of Moradin, and the connection with earth and stone is in his blood.

It's absurd because there is no story explanation for it in the game itself. I have never seen text that states that dwarves have a magical connection to stonework throughout the world that allows them to know the culture that created it without ever having been exposed to it. There is no explanation offered. If these things are written into their souls, and not just the result of their culture, it needs to be explicitly stated, as with thri-kreen and their racial memory. It would still be rather ham-fisted, but at least it would cease to be absurd.

I'd say it's more like making Aragorn clones the default ranger or Legolas clones the default elf.

So, you support an extended lifespan as a ranger ability, and shield surfing as an elf racial ability...?

If you ask the average non-gamer to name some fantasy characters, you'll get answers like Gandalf, Gimli, Thorin, Bilbo, Frodo, Legolas, Aragorn, Harry Potter, Lord Valdemort, Merlin, King Arthur, Sir Lancelot, Conan, or Robin Hood. Maybe some heroes from Greek or Norse mythology or fairy tale characters like the Wicked Queen or even characters from Star Wars. Drizz't isn't even on the radar. Archetypes that resonate with people who have had little exposure to gaming are a good thing, in my opinion.

Every Drizzt novel has been on the NYT Best Seller's list.

As long as the races in the core game are built using the same structure as those in the optional module, there isn't anything to be "fixed."

The fixing is providing a culture-neutral race for people who like the physical concept but not the cultural one, or who want to work against it without being actively punished by the rules for daring to break the mold.

If I want to play a sword-using, seafaring dwarf from a jungle where she was raised to paint with all the colors of the wind, instead of a hammer-wielding ore jockey, I don't want for all of my racial abilities to be useless sheet filler.

Ultimately, it might be better to have the core rules as a stand-alone "basic" product and then have Player's Handbooks for major play styles containing the core rules plus already-integrated modules. You get some repetition of content, but it eliminates the work involved in piecing together rules from multiple sources. Or simply have the old Basic/Advanced split; boxed sets aimed at new players or those who want a rules-light system, and Advanced books which have the most popular modular options seamlessly integrated. Cross-compatibility will be much better than in the 80s, as the Advanced game will truly be an extension of the basic game.

There are a variety of ways to deal with it, certainly. I just want to see a core game that's open enough that people don't have to wait for modules to start playing.
 

Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top