New RPG Company Casting All Women for Genesys

Dire Bare · Jun 17, 2012

TanithT said:
The Warhammer 40K freebie, "Only War: Eleventh Hour" also gets an A. It has a single female image, plus one character in the far background on the cover that is probably female. Both are appropriately dressed and holding weapons, just like the men. The female fighter looks bad@$$ but not ridiculous, like a real woman who seriously lifts weights and runs around the jungle with heavy weapons on her back. She is sleeveless, but so are most of the men, because they are all depicted as running around in a grungy, sweaty, tropical environment. So the assorted states of undress (shirtless for some men, light/sleeveless for the woman) all make sense for the environment.

Good job, Games Workshop. The only reason it's an A rather an A+ is that the male images substantially outnumber the female ones; there were only two of the latter and twelve of the former,, and one of the female images was a small one in the background of a larger image, where the men were the primary focus.

There are women in the Imperial Guard now? Cool. I'm relatively new to the Warhammer 40K universe, but I was beginning to feel like the only women in the grimdark future (at least in the various armed forces of the galaxy's races) were the Sisters of Battle (um, "battle nuns"), who seemed like the token female characters and subsequently aren't all that popular in the game (the miniatures game, at least). While I actually dig the Sisters' miniatures and vehicles, there are just tons of sexist problems with that "faction". But that's a whole other post . . .

Oh, and it isn't really Games Workshop you're giving an "A" too, its Fantasy Flight Games, under license to Games Workshop. I've always been impressed with Fantasy Flight Games, their game design, their writing, and their artwork.

The D&D "Dead In The Eye" module had no character art at all. It did have one advertisement in the back that included a drow in dubiously skimpy armor, but the drow was male. He was depicted as powerful and evil, as well as fit and strong. You could probably argue that this was a sexualized male image, though there was enough else going on that I still saw it as primarily a character illustration. Still, it met the criteria for impractically skimpy armor.

D&D certainly has its history with cheesecake, but the drow, males and females, seem to incorporate cheesecake as a cultural value. Which I'm actually pretty fine with, although many of the "classic" images from the 80s and 90s are pretty over-the-top.

Worst offender: Dungeon Crawl Classics by Goodman Games. There are seven images in total in this book, including the cover, that contain people. The rest are maps, a skull, a house, abstract decor, non gendered monsters, etc. Five of those images show women who are fighting or adventuring with bare cleavage, midriff, thighs, etc. No woman depicted in this sourcebook was in normal, practical or just non revealing clothing.

The choices that Goodman Games made with their art for that product makes me sad. I don't own any of their other products (not enough time and money) but I hear nothing but good things about their roleplaying products. Well, until now. I have a feeling that the art you say today probably reflects on their overall art design. Goodman is all about "old school" gaming, and sadly it appears that they might feel cheesecake is an integral part of the "old school" feel. Someone correct me if my assumption is wrong.

I actually would love to see a company go full 70s Frazetta van-art cheesecake in their art design, with an appropriately matched pulp setting . . . as long as it is marketed correctly . . . to a niche audience of older guys like me with a lot of nostalgia for that era (even if I missed it by a decade). However, that company should not be WotC, and it should not be the D&D game, nor should it be any company who wants to target the same market WotC does, the general gaming community.

What a lot of hardcore gamers tend to forget, is that to most people, gamers and non-gamers, Dungeons & Dragons IS roleplaying. Every single other game out there, including Pathfinder, isn't on the radar. The company that produces D&D products, WotC and any licensees, does have a (sort of) responsibility to push D&D to be more inclusive and into having a wide appeal, as it is the flagship property that carries the industry.

2nd tier companies like Paizo (Pathfinder) and FFG (Warhammer 40K RPG) should also strive to move away from sexist art. They don't "represent" the industry like D&D does, but they do cater to the general gaming community.

And specialist products like I mention above (my desired 70s inspired cheesecake rpg) would have to walk a very careful line . . . or risk becoming the next F.A.T.A.L.

I don't mean to be insulting, but, um, do you actually know any female gamers?

Every single girl rpg gamer I've met (and talked about these issues with) feels the same way you do. That despite their love of the hobby, there is an overpowering feeling of "it's not for you".

Every single girl "nerd" that I've met into video games, cosplay, SCA and other related nerdy activities (who isn't already an rpg gamer) has expressed reluctance to even give it a try . . . and its never been because of all the violence, it's been because of the creepy sexist vibe our hobby gives off, in both artwork choices and male gamer attitudes. Our hobby has made huge strides since I started in the 80s as a kid, but this persists even today.

Also, every non-nerdy (or "normal") women that I've talked about rpgs with has also displayed an aversion to giving it a try due to the creep factor . . . rarely does violence get mentioned, although it has been a factor for a few.

I'm convinced that if the tabletop hobby wants to grow and survive against the onslaught of new media and not be confined to the niche hobby ghetto populated by old beardy fat guys (the one populated by model train enthusiasts), it needs to drop the sexist art. Plus, I see it as the "right" and "moral" thing to do anyway, so positives all around!

Elf Witch · Jun 17, 2012

In the thirty years of gaming I ave never heard any woman say to me no I am not interested because of the violence.

I have had many say no because of the creepy guys.

Back in the old school days it was a lot worse I can't tell you how many times I had to deal with really outrageous stuff at the table. I had one DM who got a kick out of wanting to role play the rape of female PCs. He justified this by well rape was a common thing back in the dark ages.

I had one situation in game where the my fellow good PCs including a paladin role played out the rape of a barmaid. They and the DM were shocked when I and the other female gamer declared we were attacking the male PCs and then after we had killed them packed up and left. She quit gaming that day.

Just recently I played at a store and young teen age girl joined us she was new to the game. She was a little over weight kind of shy wore glasses. She was playing a sorceresses. She tried her charms on the King using her high charisma and looks to influence him. One of the guy s actually said to her come on do you really think you have a clue on how to play a hot chick. I respond hey tubby do you think you have a clue on how to play a fit warrior.

The girl shut down. I gave her my email and told her that all gamers are not such jerks but I never heard from her.

There are a lot of great guys in gaming but there are also a lot of misogynist jerks who hate the fact that girls want to play too.

And to ask is art really an issue go to any forum where there are female gamers and you will see that it is. Astrid's on WOTC had tons of posts by female gamers on this very subject with lots of men coming on complaining that how dare we want to take their cheesecake away form them.

We don't want to take all cheesecake away. That is not what any of us are saying and no matter how many times we say it, it does not sink in. I know this because I have been saying it every time this subject comes up.

Lwaxy · Jun 17, 2012

1ofthe9 said:
We are in fact looking for our definition of a "gorgeous women." The type of "gorgeous women" we are exclusively looking for are strong, independent women, who break stereotypes and embody the true heart of a gamer. Why can't girl gamers be referred to as "gorgeous?!" I personally know many girl gamers who not only serve as GMs, but can also show everyone at the table a thing or two about gaming.

And thus you reinforce the objectifying of women in RPGs, which is a big big nono in the community! No, gamer women don't want to be portrayed as "gorgeous" because THAR is a stupid, outdated, sexist stereotype we are slowly getting out of the RPG art, and something that turns a lot of females off video games, too.

Women want to be portrayed as they are, and it happens that most of us arent your definition of "gorgeous." We are normal women - and there more glasses wearing, short, fat, flat breasted, split haired, make up ignoring not model type women out there than those who could pass as a model. As a woman I find what you are doing very offensive and detrimental. I'd tell you to please stop this but you are clearly out for money so that wouldn't matter.

We are only looking for women who actually enjoy playing or are exited about learning to play the same games that I, along with thousands of other women enjoy playing. The mainstream media, television, and film have dedicated many years to portraying gamers as unattractive introverted people, who do not enjoy interacting with others. A perfect example is Raj from the Big Bang Theory, who can't even speak to women unless he has a drink. Fable Streams is about breaking those stereotypes.

Hate to break it to you, but the stereotype you are enforcing is a lot worse. Women have to look pretty and slim and wear nice clothes and look "gorgeous" for what - the males, of course. Because no one needs to dress up to game, especially not for an RPG. The women and girls at my gaming table usually wear the most comfortable things, no make up, and not a one of them is close to your fake ideal for women. And all of them would love to come pay your event commercializing of what you think a female gamer should be a visit and protest. In a time where women still fight to be seen as persons instead of sex objects, you come along and try to pass it off as a positive thing for women?? Dream on.

We have a company created by gamers for gamers, dedicated to sparking a movement to break mainstream stereotypes associated with the gaming community. We look forward to hosting our fellow gamers at Q Lounge this Saturday for our casting event and launch party. As gamers, shouldn't we be allowed to have a night out at a club, enjoy great music and have a cocktail, two or maybe even three. For too long gamers have been hiding—no more! Gamers Assemble!

And this is the most silly thing I have EVER heard. If I go out on a non gaming event, like a club or a party, why in the world would this have anything to do with being a gamer? Nothing AT ALL. It has nothing to do with hiding either, I'm just not into shoving my hobbies down everyone's throat. And the very last thing the world needs is pretending, like you do, that gamers can't do the things you cite already. Because, we do. Young, old, fat, slim, male, female - we do whatever we like doing. Thank you very much.

As a fat, middle aged, disabled woman, your event is sickening because it says "hey, this is how female gamers should look, all "gorgeous." For what? It's about the games, not about looks.

Kamaloo · Jun 17, 2012

Felon said:
In the above paragraph, I think you are mischaracterizing many peoples' point-of-view. Being so reductive of others' positions is invariably going to lead you to react to them negatively. The question is, are you giving the opposing the benefit of the doubt? Or are you inclined to simply write those positions off as "justifications" or "not holding water"?

Perhaps you would care to explain how those positions I mentioned (that is, positions explaining how objectifying women is perfectly all right) are entitled to the benefit of the doubt? Would you offer them the benefit of the doubt if they were, say, arguing that slavery is all right for those same reasons? Because I'll be blunt myself: I see no argument that can reasonably be made in favor of such a thing. Tolerance of opposing viewpoints is good and well, but tolerance of sexism, like racism, is a bad idea.

Felon said:
Giving that person the benefit of the doubt, they're saying the same thing as I did: there is a lot of product to choose from. Do not consume products that you find repugnant. And feel free to try sway others. But in turn realize that entails an obligation of fully hearing out the opposing point-of-view, otherwise it's a monologue rather than a discussion.

If 'that product' happens to be the entire hobby, as was MY point, then you are essentially telling me not to buy any RPGs. I await any and all explanations of how this is reasonable and fine.

Felon said:
Let me blunt here: In my exprience, I've found the average gamer to be selfish, prone to anger and avarice, and either utterly self-involved and apathetic towards the other people at the table, or ready to pass judgment on them in the most high-handed fashion. This hobby is a magnet for the maladjusted. The articulate and enlightened folks on this forum? Don't seem to run into them.

I'm sorry you seem to be running into such a low class of gamer, and that you seem willing to pass judgement on gamers as a whole because of them. I'm not sure what it has to do with any of my points, however.

Felon said:
My group has welcomed a few female gamers to the table. They played healers or things that had pets, which was a little different. However, they also conveyed saccharine and passive-aggressive attitudes, and eventually went away when they realized they would have to tolerate diverse playstyles rather than see those other players ejected from the group. Which is exactly what's happened with most of the guys who joined us for a while. In short, their gender didn't contribute much one way or the other.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with women gamers at your table (again with the low end of the spectrum? Where are you finding these people?), but your experiences are no more representative of the entire population than mine are. The difference is that my experiences seem to have been shared by a large section of the female gaming pool.

I'm not saying that gender "contributes" somehow to individual games. I don't think being female contributes any more than being male does. I'm saying it would be nice if half the population of the planet felt more welcome in playing these games. It would be of economic benefit to the sellers, it would be a relief to women who do want to play, and it would represent a drop in sexist attitutes that are pervasive in our society.

Lwaxy · Jun 17, 2012

Greatwyrm said:
So far, I'm not seeing an endless stream of T&A. Ya, I see the wardrobe of the blonde in pics 1 and 2. There's probably no excuse for wearing a two-piece to steal a dragon egg either. But this doesn't look like "Sex Object: the RPG" to me.

Uhm, those breasts falling out of their containment any minute don't shout T&A to you? :erm:

fablestreams · Jun 17, 2012

Skin

Lwaxy said:
Uhm, those breasts falling out of their containment any minute don't shout T&A to you?

Compared to many established and well known RPGs, comic books, movies, TV commercials, video game covers, etc, etc, etc. The women of Fable Streams think our art is pretty tame, yes.

XoXo

pauljathome · Jun 17, 2012

Elf Witch said:
Back in the old school days it was a lot worse I can't tell you how many times I had to deal with really outrageous stuff at the table. I had one DM who got a kick out of wanting to role play the rape of female PCs. He justified this by well rape was a common thing back in the dark ages.

I had one situation in game where the my fellow good PCs including a paladin role played out the rape of a barmaid. They and the DM were shocked when I and the other female gamer declared we were attacking the male PCs and then after we had killed them packed up and left. She quit gaming that day.

Just recently I played at a store and young teen age girl joined us she was new to the game. She was a little over weight kind of shy wore glasses. She was playing a sorceresses. She tried her charms on the King using her high charisma and looks to influence him. One of the guy s actually said to her come on do you really think you have a clue on how to play a hot chick.

It is absolutely disgusting that any of these things occurred. And there is absolutely no excuse for it happening.

But I'd REALLY like to think that they're the very unusual outliers. I've been gaming since 1979 and I've NEVER seen anything even approximating that occur. Not in all male groups, not in mixed groups. Never.

I'm quite sure that more subtle sexism has occurred in games that I've played in (a lot of it doubtless without my noticing in). But nothing at that level

Admittedly, I came into gaming in university and almost all of my gaming has been with adults. Maybe that made a difference. Maybe I've been lucky. Maybe there are regional elements involved.

Blood & Bones · Jun 17, 2012

Greatwyrm said:
I think the thing that upsets me the most about this is the response the FableStream folks have gotten here. They obviously saw Morrus' original comments and those that followed here. After that, they willingly chose to walk into the lion's den and plead their case. Some of the responses they've gotten are good examples of how we train game designers not to interact with us.

Do I like how this looks? Not really. Sell me a system or a setting. If it's pretty too, even better. But can we at least put down the torches and pitchforks for a couple of minutes?

... Yes, this thread has gotten emotional, but I don't think I can point to anything that was said about FableStream's actions that were incorrect. I look at it this way; if this was a much larger company and it had been racism instead of sexism, you would have seen an even stronger negative reaction.

Companies, if they are to survive in the social-media market place, needs two things; a thick skin and a willingness to accept valid feedback. If a company isn't willing to accept feedback or shrinks from its own customers when confronted with a legitimate complaints - regardless of how emotionally charged - those companies will shrivel and die.

TanithT · Jun 17, 2012

fablestreams said:
Compared to many established and well known RPGs, comic books, movies, TV commercials, video game covers, etc, etc, etc. The women of Fable Streams think our art is pretty tame, yes.

The question isn't one of "tame" vs "explicit". The question is, "How stupid do you have to be go into battle with half your torso completely bare and lots of skin showing?"

As a female SCA fighter I gotta say, the answer is "pretty damn stupid".

Do you want your character to be portrayed as stupid? Even if she looks sexy while she's being stupid? I don't.

There's nothing wrong with cheesecake, as I and all the rest of the women on this thread have been saying. I just think there's better things to do with sexy art than to make women look stupid.

Morrus · Jun 17, 2012

Greatwyrm said:
Call me old-fashioned, but I'm accustomed to someone producing a product before I boycott it.

Lets think, just for a moment, that maybe the folks at FableStreams true to their word. Maybe, just maybe, they really are after Felicia Day and Sarah Darkmagic, rather than Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton. We really can't at least wait long enough for them to actually put up or shut up?

Someone said earlier this looked like a press release written by a hype company and not a gaming company. Maybe I'm unique as the only person here to have ever spoken poorly chosen words or to have had someone say something really dumb on my behalf. But are we really going to start going all Minority Report when these people haven't even produced anything yet?

I'll agree that "boycott" may be too strong a word based solely on a press release, and that the proof will be in - as they say - the pudding.

However, and this is a big however, one should absolutely form opinions based on the press coming out of a company. That's why they make these press releases. That's what publicity is for.

Obviously, any company would hope for a positive rather than negative reaction. Indeed, many would probably prefer a negative reaction to no reaction. But I don't feel that advocating not forming an opinion on a product based on the publicity created specifically for that product makes much sense.

Maybe later publicity could change minds. But one forms opinions based on the existing publicity. That's why the publicity is there.