New RPG Company Casting All Women for Genesys - Page 19
  1. #181
    Spellbinder (Lvl 16)

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    Just wanted to pop in here and say that my girlfriend and I are following this thread with interest. The portrayal of women in society has long been a boilerplate for her, as the portrayal of gamers in society has been for me.

    Did any ENWorlders attend this event? We are hoping to hear first-hand from someone who attended.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post
    So I'm not sure I understand this, or that I'm getting from it what you mean me to. More specifically, I don't think that's a valid analogy. Here's why:

    The extrapolation (by reverting the words back to the subject at hand) is "nothing sexier than a woman who can game as well a man" I'm very uncomfortable with that. That implies to me that (a) men game better than women; (b) it is a man's game; and (c) those women who can game as well as a man should be characterized as "sexy".

    I agree with none of those three things.
    Hmm, I guess it could sound this way but that's not how I perceived it when it happened to me (with the cooking and when I got involved in the cat fancy world). If you share a passion and you're a positive person, I think you naturally want as many people as possible to understand it and perhaps, get interested in it (without preaching and becoming annoying).

    And sometimes, the demographic makes it look like: This activity, or hobby, or pursuit, or career... is the province of <code>[insert a color, gender, sexual orientation combination]</code>. And that's just not true. Some people are just glad when the stereotype barrier is broken, I think. I personally find it inspiring and attractive to see people pursuing dreams goals and passions. And it's even more refreshing when it falls outside of the demographic you expect. And when it's about my passions, I do not like to be part of some hermetic, homogenous club. I welcome diversity

    Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post

    I agree with none of those three things. I'd also submit that a women referring to a man's cooking in that matter is not the same thing, because men, traditionally, are not the targets of sexism. It's similar to how racism arguments need to account for the history and culture in which the targets of such comments find themselves and the way those comments echo across society.*

    *That is far too poetic; I hope my meaning comes across. I struggled to describe my thoughts.
    I live in the here and now and see the two situations in a similar light. I hate discrimination but my radar doesn't go off in either case. It's possible that I'm not aware of the impact of history or something.

  3. #183
    Superhero (Lvl 15)

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheShroud View Post
    You say you have felt sexism from playing RPGs, and I ask this question( because i need a better understanding of where it is coming from) was it the books, or game, or the people you played with? Because honestly, I have played with many women who loved RPGs and never once got mad at the art work, but if someone said something wrong which some men do. They would feel uncommfortable. And when that happens the problem needs to be addressed right then.

    If its the books, if when you open it up and the pictures are uncommfortably graphic, tell the DM/GM i dont feel comfortable playing this, IF he is a good friend, player, or GM he wont have an issue with finding a different game style.

    Sexism is out there, but it doesnt mean you have to be uncomfortable you have the power as a person to say I want nothing to do with this, and walk away from a particular RPG or situation.

    (about the art work...and I know I am stepping on egg shells) Women and men have differences in appearance. The males physical body is ugly, I've had this convo with a a man who is into men, other guys who are into women, and women into men. And every single one of them agreed that a women's body is more beautiful. Though i feel this is often (and sadly) missued, it is the main way that company's are able to describe these women(not justifying it or saying I am ok with it. Just that no one has found a better way.)

    (my attitude) my attitude is not "it is pointless to speak up", it is actually complete opposite. As I described its I do something when I have something to do. If you dont have a solution why are you wasting energy complaining (complsining does not equal to speaking up or out)? that energy you are wasting could be used to come up with a better solution. All I am saying is if you don't like it, and it is broken, then dont complain. Complaining solves nothing, what solves problems are people putting there heads together and designing a new way.

    I love hearing issues and problems, and I am all for speaking out, but what I like to hear after a complaint is... "i was thinking and I believe this might make it better...." I try not to let my anger be the only thing I bring to a situation. Complaints don't work in life, they don't work in relationships, they don't work when school work is late. But what does work is having an answer.

    I care about sexism, I am a husband and a father to 2 girls who will one day be women in this harsh world. But I plan on teaching them "my attitude" (see above paragraph) I want them to change things not complain that it is unfair.

    Change comes from more than just words or an idea, it comes from our actions and desires to make something better.

    Again this is only my opinion/view i dont expect or think everyone should agree. Heck that is why we are all different. So if u have been offended i apologize.
    I have felt it in the game , books and minis. Though as I have said it is slowly getting better. I mentioned already the crap I took in the game from overt creepiness to sexism like I am putting a cap of a 10 on strength for all female characters and cap of 12 on wisdom as well because woman are usually not as wise as men and look to them for guidance.

    My first wizard I played the DM proudly provided me with a mini that had been beautifully painted. The mini had long flowing hair with a staff with a crystal ball on top and her one arm was out like she was casting a spell. She was also topless wearing just a belly dancer style bottom. I don't think the DM was trying to be a jerk. Semi nudity was common in the art work of this time. I don't think he or the rest of the guys grasped how very uncomfortable this made me.

    I am way older now and I have learned how to let art like this in RPGs roll off my back and I would never tolerate the stuff I put up when I was a teen and young adult. I have learned how to handle creepy guys and sexist guys. But I still roll my eyes at this kind of art and I will speak out about it when the subject comes up.

    I am not going to change systems over one or two pieces of art. But I don't have to like it. It is a very complicated issue. As a feminist of long standing I see that the way woman are portrayed in media is not healthy for the self esteem of young woman. We are bombarded with how we are supposed to look even when it is imposable for the majority of us. Young girls today are having plastic surgery at younger ages, twenty two year olds are having botox because they fear aging.

    The mistake a woman can make is to wrap her self esteem up in how she looks. I am 54 I am seeing this with my friends. My one friend was a beauty queen when she was younger every where she went every man in the place had eyes on her. Now at 54 she even though she is still attractive this is not happening it is happening to her daughter and she had admitted she resents her for it. She has said she feels worthless that her life is over. Even though she has a great career a great family the fact that her beauty is fading is devastating to her.

    I think it is healthier for woman to have not just images of beautiful hot woman but woman who look pulled together but look like them. I think gaming can be a wonderful tool for young girls to expand their imagination to get out there and have power and be heroes so while I am not saying make the art work unattractive but don't make it sexy which gives the message even when you are fighting to save the world you must look sexy to do it.

    So many young woman today dress in a very sexual way and they feel it is their body they should be allowed to show it off. And in a way they are right. But what they don't understand is that men are very visually stimulated by the way woman look. And if you dress in a way that send those signals when that is not your intention it makes it harder for them to separate that from say the non sexual message you are trying to send. There is a time and a place for it. At a club looking to meet guys is one thing in the board room trying to come across as professional is another thing all together.

    In the art work you can still make the woman look good without making them look stupid. You realize that these woman look stupid and laughable come on goes into a fight with a dragon in high heels. There are a lot of woman who refuse to be sensible when it matters and dress in just a totally inappropriate way for the situation. Every year at the Dade County Youth Fair the paramedics get called out to treat woman who have broken bones or sprained ankles because they are trying to walk around on cracked pavement and climb on rides in high heels.

    I shake my head when I see this woman and I wonder what their IQ is. I wear high heels but not to places like that. And it is not like you can't find pretty flats.

    Like I pointed out earlier woman in the military don't dress like vixens even if they are wearing a skirt and they don't wear stiletto heels either while on duty. In combat zones they wear the same uniform and boots as the guys. I think adventures should be the same.

    I do have a solution how about pick realistic looking gaming woman as well as vixens. Save the cheesecake art for the characters that are supposed to be sexual like succubi or evil priestess of the god of lust. And make the woman match the men if men who wear full plate don't have peek a boo cuts then don't dress the woman in fill armor the with them. If male wizards don't run around in skimpy clothes don't make the female wizard do so.

    Speaking out writing letters to gaming companies is not complaining it is trying to do something to effect change. The men and woman speaking up here I think have sent a message to this company that not all of us liked their ad. I don't know if it will make a difference to them but I know for a fact that not saying anything certainly wouldn't have let them know that some of us found it highly sexist.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by TanithT View Post
    Yes, that was pretty cool. It doesn't change the fact that if I walk into a store and pick random gaming material, I'm going to spend a lot of time being reminded that I am not the intended market here. And facepalming.
    Can it be okay to not be the intended market for a product? I'm not the intended market for a lot of things and if I stumble upon something that's not for me, I put it back down and look at something else.

    Quite often the price of admission to sit at the gaming table with the guys includes my silence or complicity about things that make me feel bad. If I don't pretend it's okay, if I say, "Hey, this makes me feel bad - just thought you'd like to know," there are significant social penalties. They argue, they tell me to stop complaining, they tell me I am hypersensitive or a prude. I'm not one of the guys any more. I have set myself apart, and the atmosphere changes for the worse.
    Don't think this just happens because it's a gender issue. Lots of people identify strongly with a given aesthetic or body of media. You'd experience a similar (but lesser) reaction if you expressed your dislike for something else the rest of the people at the table liked. But it's not just expressing dislike that you're talking about. You're accusing the other people around you of being immoral for liking it-- that's how they see it anyway. That probably contributes the most to any escalation from friendly disagreement to alienation.

    It's human nature to ostracize a moral critic. Especially in our time where any form of appearing judgmental is a socially acceptable target for alienation or ostracism. People participate in their hobbies for enjoyment, not to be judged.

    No one should be surprised or shocked when they say that something someone else likes is harmful that the reaction is less than friendly.

    Let's say I ignore that and go on to sit at a gaming table. Out of five or six guys there, there's a decent chance that at least one of them is going to send me that same message. Maybe it'll be subtle, in the language he uses to refer to me or to other females, and maybe it won't be so subtle.
    If you are trying to find subtle proof of anything in the way people express themselves, you'll find the evidence you want to see. I would hate to spend my time looking for opportunities to be offended by messages I perceive others as sending.

  5. #185
    Myrmidon (Lvl 10)

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    I gotta bail from this thread. A lot of you guys here are making me feel less welcome in gaming, and I've been doing this most of my life.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post
    Well, other than the women in this very thread who say otherwise. My position is that I will take them at face value. If you choose not to, you'll need to discuss that with them, not me; my position will remain one in which I believe what they're telling me about their own motivations.

    I mean, how many stories do you have to hear, and how many women have to tell you that there is a problem with sexism before you'll believe them? Simply denying the problem exists is - well, at the very least - an unfortunate choice in my eyes. You could discuss it with them, you could ask for more information, you do a thousand tags - but to simply deny that the problems they say are experiencing even exist is very, very unfair.

    Yes. Yes, they have. That's the whole point.

    And the women are answering. To then ignore their answers in favour of your own theory is denial at the very least.
    I apologize for answering late to this one (still catching up).

    To clarify, it's not my own theory. I'm just relating what I'm hearing from my own roleplaying network. That doesn't invalidate what the gamers here have been saying, not at all. But just like I am taking into consideration what these people are saying, I also have to rely on what other females are telling me. Some of them close friends, relatives, people I have loved and known for decades. Some of them gamers, some of them former gamers and some of them who never got interested.

    I have no explanation as to why the ratio of females in the hobby is what it is. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of factors at work.

    The females I know who won't game just tell me they'd rather do something else, like going to salsa night. (where the creep factor seems to be pretty freaking high based on their stories).

    I am definitely listening to what the female gamers on this thread have to say, though. It's an interesting discussion!

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Kynn View Post
    I gotta bail from this thread. A lot of you guys here are making me feel less welcome in gaming, and I've been doing this most of my life.
    Well, I hope it wasn't something I said. If so, please feel free to write here or by PM so that I can better explain. It is not my intention to make anyone feel unwelcome in gaming, quite the contrary.

    I can only say that it's been enlightening for me to revisit this subject. It helps me to read about others' perspective. And if you'd rather not discuss it, that's fine too. But I hope you'll happily continue to game!

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Stacie GmrGrl View Post
    You seen like an okay guy, I would like to be a player in one of your games.
    You would be more than welcome should you ever come to Montreal!

    I usually run games in my native language, though. I did run a mini-campaign in Shakespeare's tongue in Toronto and a bilingual campaign once so I'm rusty but willing

    Barring that, maybe one day I'll try gaming online if I find a group!

  9. #189
    Waghalter (Lvl 7)

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    Quote Originally Posted by nnms View Post
    Can it be okay to not be the intended market for a product? I'm not the intended market for a lot of things and if I stumble upon something that's not for me, I put it back down and look at something else.
    Sure. The 'unwelcome' factor goes up a lot when you're being depicted *as* the product, though.

    But it's not just expressing dislike that you're talking about. You're accusing the other people around you of being immoral for liking it-- that's how they see it anyway.
    If I was expressing it in a manner that could possibly be construed that way, yes, it certainly could. Given that I am personally very vocal about being pro porn, pro sex industry, and pro alternative sexuality/gender expression, it's going to be a very far stretch for anyone to get the idea that I think they are immoral for any type of sexuality they want to express. Apparently they've been managing it though, because they can't think of any other reason that someone could possibly object to cheesecake in an RPG.

    The actual issue is very far from a 'moral' one, though I imagine some folks on either side of the gender gap might get them conflated.

    People participate in their hobbies for enjoyment, not to be judged.
    Yes. Exactly. I am not in this hobby to be judged by my boobage, and it is No Fun when my characters are depicted as if that's all they are there for.

    So what happens when the way you enjoy your hobby actively detracts from my comfort and enjoyment, and we're in the same hobby?

  10. #190
    Titan (Lvl 27)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kynn View Post
    I gotta bail from this thread. A lot of you guys here are making me feel less welcome in gaming, and I've been doing this most of my life.
    I urge you to reconsider. You have the right to stand up and speak your piece. Abd if the only advocate for this cause ends up being me - a white British man - then the whole exercise is rendered pointless.

    I appreciate that there are very few women speaking up here. And that there are almost no men expressing support for your side of this, and several strenuously denying that the problem even exists. And that's a damn shame.

    But if *I* end up being the lone voice, then it's useless. I have no validity here.

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