New RPG Company Casting All Women for Genesys

Felon · Jun 17, 2012

Morrus said:
And this, ladies and gents, is why women are such a small minority in our hobby. And they are; this isn't something that can be argued. The evidence is in: this stuff does have an effect. It's not harmless fun.

Can you present this objective, incontrovertible, argument-obliterating evidence for the community's evaluation? Women are not highly-represented in our community, but that may simply be that the kind of violent power fantasy that typifies the vast majority of RPG's is more off-putting than depictions of scantily-clad women. This is one reason why the R-rated action movie is no longer a major Hollywood endeavor. Women choose the movies that couples see, and they tend to prefer other genres (the other reason is that parents won't take their kids to them).

If you're not a woman who feels intimidated or objectified in our hobby, you don't get to tell those women that it's OK. If you're male, you definitely don't.

I see. But a woman who feels it's not okay can campaign as much as she please? You, as a male, are entitled to rail against what you find offensive to women, but other males aren't to offer their counter-arguments, their opinions? That strikes me as an inequitable and high-handed view. It's not what I've come to expect of you.

In his post above, El Mahdi seems to be doing the right thing. He's listening, then challenging. He isn't simply dictating morality to others. He resorts to critical thinking and provides arguments that can sway the hearts and minds of others. This is the course I urge for all persons subject to reason.

Morrus · Jun 17, 2012

Felon said:
Please present your incontrovertible, argument-obliterating evidence.

But a woman who feels it's not okay can campaign as much as she please? You, as a male, are entitled to rail against what you find offensive to women, but other males aren't to offer their counter-arguments, their opinions?

In his post above, El Mahdi seems to be doing the right thing. He's listening, then challenging. He provides arguments that can sway the hearts and minds of others.

I think you're misreading - or at the least misunderstanding - my post. You state it's wrong to tell people their opinions are wrong, but then object specifically - and, indeed, only - to the very post where I say it's unfair to tell women their feelings are wrong?

Do you actually object to my saying it's wrong to tell these women their opinions are wrong? I'm hoping that this is just a communication problem.

There's a big difference between offering one's own opinion, and stating that women are wrong for feeling the way they - in this very thread - say they do. If they say that's how they feel, then I stand by my statement: nobody can tell them they're wrong to do so. Especially not me, a member of a group which will never feel discriminated against.

One can certainly offer one's opinion. But one cannot tell these women that they are wrong to feel the way they do. Because that is how they feel. They said so, right here in this thread.

Felon · Jun 17, 2012

Morrus said:
There's a big difference between offering one's own opinion, and stating that women are wrong for feeling the way they - in this very thread - say they do. If they say that's how they feel, then I stand by my statement: nobody can tell them they're wrong to do so. Especially not me, a member of a group which will never feel discriminated against.

It sounds like we did indeed have a communication problem on this item. If you are not denying others their two cents, then I can take no issue with that quote.

Morrus · Jun 17, 2012

Felon said:
It sounds like we did indeed have a communication problem on this item. If you are not denying others their two cents, then I can take no issue with that quote.

If I'm denying people their two cents, it'll be fairly obvious. They wouldn't be able to post. Disagreeing with someone is not denying them their ability to speak.

Felon · Jun 17, 2012

Morrus said:
If I'm denying people their two cents, it'll be fairly obvious. They wouldn't be able to post. Disagreeing with someone is not denying them their ability to speak.

To clarify further, I mean "denying" as in telling people that "the evidence is in" and "there can no argument". The following seems to your bombshell that cracks the case wide open:

3) and the third of the incorrectly labelled two facets: the fact that people are actually willing to argue against gender equality surprises me. Who wouldn't want to encourage half the population to partipate in their hobby? When that half is telling us repeatedly over a period of years that they feel excluded, who wouldn't listen? Is it that vital to have cheesecake in their game books? Is that why they like the hobby? Can't they live without it for the sake of a vast number of people?

As I stated before, I do not see it as a given that women feel excluded by virtue of cheesecake that is, frankly, not overrepresented. I've seen women pick up a D&D book and say "oh, she's pretty" or "give me a break" just as they would flipping through some fashion magazine.

As I edited into a post above, I submit that the casual attitude towards extreme violence that is typical of RPG's and the gamers is not a draw for them. What is D&D without combat? What percentage of spells pertain solely to freezing, incinerating, electrocuting, shredding or simply tossing big ol' spray of acid onto living flesh? D&D can be said to be about a lot of things, and you can certainly have a session without an initiative roll, but I think we'd be kidding ourselves that D&D started out as and to this day remains an outlet for violent power fantasies that are just as prurient and objectifying and desensitizing as any slap-n'-tickle fantasy.

How many times have folks here been in a situation where a parley ended with a PC knocking someone's head off their shoulders? And when it happens, doesn't everyone at the table chortle like it was the cutest thing in the world? Maybe some folks don't find it all that cute.

Morrus · Jun 17, 2012

Felon said:
To clarify further, I mean "denying" as in telling people that "the evidence is in" and "there can no argument".

Well, there can be no argument against someone telling you how something makes them feel. I guess you could - at a stretch - argue that they're lying, and that they don't feel the way they say they do - but that would be a pretty silly, and remarkably obnoxious thing to say!

If this discussion is to have any wings, it needs to take people at face value: if the women in this thread say that's how these things make them feel, then that's how these things make them feel. I believe them.

And thus my line of opinion: I would prefer it if our hobby didn't make them feel that way. I don't think that's a controversial position to take, and I fervently hope that the majority agrees with that position. I'll certainly continue to advocate for it.

Felon · Jun 17, 2012

Morrus said:
Well, there can be no argument against someone telling you how something makes them feel. I guess you could - at a stretch - argue that they're lying, and that they don't feel the way they say they do - but that would be a pretty silly, and remarkably obnoxious thing to say!

Fair enough.

If this discussion is to have any wings, it needs to take people at face value: if the women in this thread say that's how these things make them feel, then that's how these things make them feel. I believe them.

And thus my line of opinion: I would prefer it if our hobby didn't make them feel that way. I don't think that's a controversial position to take, and I fervently hope that the majority agrees with that position. I'll certainly continue to advocate for it.

As I edited into a post above, I submit that the casual attitude towards extreme violence that is typical of RPG's and the gamers is as much a turn-off as anything we're talking about here, and its far, far more prevalent. What is D&D without combat? What percentage of spells pertain solely to freezing, incinerating, electrocuting, shredding or simply tossing big ol' spray of acid onto living flesh? D&D can be said to be about a lot of things, and you can certainly have a session without an initiative roll, but I think we'd be kidding ourselves that D&D started out as and to this day remains an outlet for violent power fantasies that are just as prurient and objectifying and desensitizing as any slap-n'-tickle fantasy.

How many times have folks here been in a situation where a parley ended with a PC gleefully decapitating someone? And when it happens, doesn't everyone at the table chortle like it was the cutest thing in the world? Maybe some folks don't find it all that cute.

I'm not proposing that anything change with regards to violence, because at the end of the day, there's a marketing principle that overrides the lofty goal of being all-inclusive: you cannot appeal to everyone. It would be nice to have more women in the hobby, but most hobbies have their core audience. You think if the NFL got rid of cheerleaders, that would suddenly attract an influx of women who now feel welcome in the boy's club? Fact is, aggressive pursuits like sports, war movies, martial arts, hunting, and RPG's all appeal to guys because most women just don't feel the attraction.

Kamaloo · Jun 17, 2012

TanithT and Morrus have spoken extremely cogent arguments against the objectivication of women that I, at least, have experienced turning a number of women off gaming forever. I'd just like to say that the mere fact that many people can't see a problem with such behavior is appalling to me. They may justify their view with arguments like, "everybody does it!", "there are bigger problems to worry about!" or "if it pays, it must be fine!", but as a woman, I'd like to state that IT IS NOT FINE, it is a plenty big enough problem for this hobby, and as others have stated, the existence of a problem elsewhere doesn't make it okay for that problem to exist in your backyard.

Feeling unwelcome in your own hobby so that the men can be pleased is an unpleasant thing. One poster argued against TanithT's analogy of the hobby as a restaurant by saying, "if you don't like the restaurant, find a different one." I believe TanithT wasn't referring to this particular RPG with her analogy, but to the hobby as a whole. I'd like to think that person wasn't telling us to get out of the entire hobby if it makes us feel unwelcome?

How about: NO. I'd rather voice an argument against that pervasive attitude that women in games exist to be, at best, rescued and/or ogled, and hope that game designers now and in the future hear that argument. If enough of us make it, maybe things will change.

Don't you want to see more women at your tables?

Kamaloo · Jun 17, 2012

Felon said:
Fair enough.

As I edited into a post above, I submit that the casual attitude towards extreme violence that is typical of RPG's and the gamers is as much a turn-off as anything we're talking about here, and its far, far more prevalent. ... Fact is, aggressive pursuits like sports, war movies, martial arts, hunting, and RPG's all appeal to guys because most women just don't feel the attraction.

None of the women I've ever gotten to try the game was particularly put off by the violence of it. This argument might hold more water if a huge subsection of gamer women didn't play inherently violent games like WOW. As it is, I think this is one of the more pernicious myths that get bandied about.

Morrus · Jun 17, 2012

Felon said:
Fair enough.

As I edited into a post above, I submit that the casual attitude towards extreme violence that is typical of RPG's and the gamers is as much a turn-off as anything we're talking about here, and its far, far more prevalent. What is D&D without combat? What percentage of spells pertain solely to freezing, incinerating, electrocuting, shredding or simply tossing big ol' spray of acid onto living flesh? D&D can be said to be about a lot of things, and you can certainly have a session without an initiative roll, but I think we'd be kidding ourselves that D&D started out as and to this day remains an outlet for violent power fantasies that are just as prurient and objectifying and desensitizing as any slap-n'-tickle fantasy.

How many times have folks here been in a situation where a parley ended with a PC gleefully decapitating someone? And when it happens, doesn't everyone at the table chortle like it was the cutest thing in the world? Maybe some folks don't find it all that cute.

I'm not proposing that anything change with regards to violence, because at the end of the day, there's a marketing principle that overrides the lofty goal of being all-inclusive: you cannot appeal to everyone. It would be nice to have more women in the hobby, but most hobbies have their core audience. You think if the NFL got rid of cheerleaders, that would suddenly attract an influx of women who now feel welcome in the boy's club? Fact is, aggressive pursuits like sports, war movies, martial arts, hunting, and RPG's all appeal to guys because most women just don't feel the attraction.

I honestly don't know. Maybe violence in games is a factor; that's not what women are saying, though. I'm not convinced of the value of opining that a reason other than the one they're actually citing is causing them to feel the way the do.

As I said before, I'm inclined to take people at face value. If women are clearly saying it's the cheesecake and sexist attitudes, I've no reason to believe it's something else. And I certainly wouldn't want to tell them that they feel the way they do for reasons other than those they say.

So I, for one, am going to remain at the point that if women are telling us the problem is sexist attitudes, then I believe that the problem is sexist attitudes, and not violence in games. I don't feel I have the right to suggest otherwise.