Convincing 4th Edition players to consider 5th Edition

Imaro

Legend
Do you have the Moldvay Basic edition? If not...
FOREWORD

I was busy rescuing the captured maiden when the dragon showed up. Fifty feet of scaled terror glared down at us with smoldering red eyes. Tendrils of smoke drifted out from between fangs larger than daggers. The dragon blocked the only exit from the cave.

[some stuff about the D&D game and what the point of Basic is]

I unwrapped the sword which the mysterious cleric had given me. The sword was golden-tinted steel. Its hilt was set with a rainbow collection of precious gems. I shouted my battle cry and charged.

My charge caught the dragon by surprise. Its titanic jaws snapped shut inches from my face. I swung the golden sword with both arms. The swordblade bit into the dragon's neck and continued through to the other side. With an earth-shaking crash, the dragon dropped dead at my feet. The magic sword had saved my life and ended the reign of the dragon-tyrant. The countryside was freed and I could return a hero.

Tom Moldvay
3 December 1980

Thanks for quoting that LostSoul... No, I'm afraid I don't have the Moldvay set... my basic experience is limited to the two Rules Cyclopedia's I got off ebay a while ago. Though now that I've read it, I'm even more confused... I can only echo Harlock and my previous question... what exactly is promissed here that only 4e delivers??
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I think 4e fundamentally changed the way the game played.
In my experience, it's the players that decide how the game is played, not the system. When discussing the various editions of D&D, at least.

I have found no difference between how my group approaches 4E to how they approach 3E. Other than some of the words used to describe things, the game plays the same. Conversely, I have played AD&D is many different ways in various campaigns (combat-heavy, pure exploration/investigation, political intrigue), so saying that the system determines how the game is played seems incorrect to me.
 

In one post we go from:

That is not an objective measure.

To:

The only reason 4E sold at all was the brand name it was associated to.
Please. There are an awful lot of 4E fans here, who prefer it over any other edition of the game. Your statement is trying to say that they're all just blind to the fact that the game is terrible, and they only play it because it's the new shiny. That's condescending and insulting.
 

Imaro

Legend
In my experience, it's the players that decide how the game is played, not the system. When discussing the various editions of D&D, at least.

I have found no difference between how my group approaches 4E to how they approach 3E. Other than some of the words used to describe things, the game plays the same. Conversely, I have played AD&D is many different ways in various campaigns (combat-heavy, pure exploration/investigation, political intrigue), so saying that the system determines how the game is played seems incorrect to me.

I'm going to disagree here. When you can be killed in a single blow, have a level permanantly drained or die from a single save... it tends to produce a different playstyle than if you know it generally takes 3-4 attacks to knock you unconscious (but not dead), permanent level drain doesn't exist and/or it takes numerous saves to kill you. Now before someone tries to put words in my mouth, I'm not claiming either one is superior, just that the way the rules are set up does very much affect the play of the game.
 

I'm going to disagree here. When you can be killed in a single blow, have a level permanantly drained or die from a single save... it tends to produce a different playstyle than if you know it generally takes 3-4 attacks to knock you unconscious (but not dead), permanent level drain doesn't exist and/or it takes numerous saves to kill you.
Sure, I'll grant that for the first couple of levels at least, 3E generally plays more deadly than 4E. But even that's not universal since it depends greatly on the DM.

But then, since combat is not everything in D&D, differences in how combat works shouldn't be the sole factor in deciding whether something plays the same or not.
 

Harlock

First Post
In my experience, it's the players that decide how the game is played, not the system. When discussing the various editions of D&D, at least.

I have found no difference between how my group approaches 4E to how they approach 3E. Other than some of the words used to describe things, the game plays the same. Conversely, I have played AD&D is many different ways in various campaigns (combat-heavy, pure exploration/investigation, political intrigue), so saying that the system determines how the game is played seems incorrect to me.

I believe this is spot on. And, I think, this is what leads to some people thinking their favored system(s) are in fact examples of better game design. Many times, the fix can be as simple as finding a new group (I say simple, but for some that is easier said than done!). As a for instance, the 4e group I was in never grasped the game. Combats were extremely long and tedious and for us, dangerous in the extreme. I don't necessarily blame the system for all of that, as a little DM fiat could have gone a long way to let us enjoy the game more.

Speaking of DM fiat, having the same DM across editions isn't necessarily the answer either. A DM can grasp one system better than another. A DM can be more familiar with a system and therefore more able to adjudicate on the fly to give his or her players the game they want. And, hopefully, this is where 5e comes through on its promise. A streamlined core can be a boon to many DMs and players. Modules adding new layers of complexity can be added when groups are ready so as not to over-complicate things. It also allows groups to pick and choose what lends verisimilitude to their game.

Some folks find lots of rules and dice rolling to add realism. Having rules for contracting venereal disease in a romantic dalliance might add verisimilitude for some. Rolling to-hit, then rolling on a generalized location chart, and further on a specific injury chart to other people is realism. For others still, all of that rolling can get in the way of their realistic narrative and descriptive storytelling. None are wrong about what realism is, because realism is a relative term in the demesne of roleplaying games.

In that sense, perhaps the most convincing reason for those happily playing 4e to try 5e is to see if it works for them and might improve their game. Or, if it is at least as enjoyable, perhaps making the switch is ultimately worth it for updated campaign material or extending a converted campaign? In the end, nothing we say will convince anyone to switch. The onus is on WotC to deliver a game that appeals to whomever they intend to be their market. Hopefully, that is all of us, though being a pragmatist, I realize nothing can please everyone. Well, except for bacon. Everyone loves bacon.
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
Illusionism, and the immersion for which it is generally deployed, are at odds with the clear and transparent design approach of 4E. This is really the heart of the "irreconcilable difference" expressed in the OP and some of the more forceful rebuttals for and against it. You can have more abstraction or less abstraction, more tactical options or more simple rules, more complex social interactions or more simple ones, etc. For example, no one really dislikes "balance". A lot of people do dislike "balance that destroys the illusion of difference." Such issues can be handled by a modular game. However, you can't simultaneously pull back the curtain and also carefully keep it shut. :D

So for Next to succeed on that particular issue, it has to walk some kind of precarious tightrope, alternately pulling back the curtain selectively while pretending not to do the very thing it is doing in other places. This is the part that I'm not sure can be pulled off. It is akin to simultaneously running a "magician" convention where half the events are teaching you to be a magician and the other half are performing the shows. How do you keep people who like the illusion from wandering across the hall to see the curtain pulled back in detail? How do you at the same time tell the people that want to be magicians where to go to get the details without encouraging other people to look?

The original answer was that the DM was the magician, while all the players were "audience". They could come up on stage and get cut in half, but not know the trick. This was obviously always in tension in a group game, and has been a bone of contention from the get go. Not least of all, it ignores the fact that some DMs like illusionism and some players hate it.

I don't think that this issue can be solved, but maybe I'm suffering from an atypical surge of pessimism. :D :eek: Thus my solution is to basically run two strands through Next, one dedicated to the immersionists dedicated to clear narrative design, with some elements clearly called out for each style, but sharing a lot of other elements where they can, and readily splitting where they cannot.
 

LostSoul

Adventurer
Well, since you're answering for pemerton now, What exactly is the promise made above and how is it that 4e is the only system of D&D ever to deliver on that promise?

I'm not trying to answer for pemerton. I wanted to provide context to the discussion in case someone didn't have access to the text.

Thanks for quoting that LostSoul... No, I'm afraid I don't have the Moldvay set... my basic experience is limited to the two Rules Cyclopedia's I got off ebay a while ago. Though now that I've read it, I'm even more confused... I can only echo Harlock and my previous question... what exactly is promissed here that only 4e delivers??

No problem. I'm not sure what's promised here that only 4E delivers; we'll have to wait for pemerton to answer.
 

In my experience, it's the players that decide how the game is played, not the system. When discussing the various editions of D&D, at least.

I have found no difference between how my group approaches 4E to how they approach 3E. Other than some of the words used to describe things, the game plays the same. Conversely, I have played AD&D is many different ways in various campaigns (combat-heavy, pure exploration/investigation, political intrigue), so saying that the system determines how the game is played seems incorrect to me.

In my experience system effects gameplay a lot. Everything from how long combat takes to the dynamics between characters at the table. Whether you are able to play an epic hero or gritty spy; system definitely has an impact. You can always work around the system but the system itself is the toolbox you draw from. I would say 2E, 3E and 4E all play very differently in my experience.
 

Herschel

Adventurer
That isn't fun for you. For some people it actually makes playing those characters more fun. I don't want to do "cool stuff" all the time. I realize this is what lots of 4e players do want and its very reasonable for them to ask for this. But for me it waters down the overall excitement of the game when I am given buttons for all occassions.

This is important because its why we spend hours and hours flaming one another on this topic. Fun is subjective. Its why the phrase tyranny of fun cropped up in the wake of 4e: for some people the 4e approach, while intended to make the game fun at all times, was anything but fun.
It has nothing to do with fun though, he posted about "dumbing down the game". Simple or complex can be fun, but saying the broader spectrum of choices instead of narrowly defined archtypes and skills is "dumbed down" is, quite frankly, dumb.
 

Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top