Convincing 4th Edition players to consider 5th Edition

pemerton

Legend
Why would I need the middle man of a personality mechanic if I've already got the NPC's personality described? Why not make the leap from personality to action directly?
Well, it depends on what you're trying to achieve. But there is a difference between a description of an NPC as "cowardly", with the GM adjudicating behaviour on the basis of that, and the assignment of a morale number to that NPC a la classic D&D, with the GM making morale checks at certain specified intervals.

Why would you go the second way? Maybe you want to make it easier for the GM (as LostSoul describes). Maybe you want a mechanic that the players can then directly affect (eg by having their PCs cast spells or use abilities that grant bonuses or penalties to morale checks). GM fiat as a resolution sytem doesn't generally encourage players to build up, and expend, mechanical resouces in relation to in the same sort of way.

One of the difficulties of this approach is that there are many NPCs, some of whom are created on the fly. It is asking a lot of the DM to come up with a complex behavioural profile of all NPCs, especially if the DM is attempting to be an impartial arbiter.

That's one of the reasons I employ social mechanics such as Reaction Rolls and Morale Checks; there are others, e.g. using the mechanics to deliver unexpected results.
For me, the "unexpected results" aspect of social mechanics is the most important. That's why I personally enjoy a skill-challenge style resolution system, where the mechanics oblige the GM and the players to continue to introduce new content into the situation (via further skill checks from the players, and further narration of the resolution of those checks from the GM). That new content, as it feeds on earlier-introduced content, produces results that no one at the table anticpated or was aiming for going into the situation.

At some level, yes, the GM is going to be an adversary to the players.
I don't think the GM is an adversary of the players. But I do think the GM, at least traditionally, has the role of providing adversity. And I think it becomes harder to do this if the GM is also in charge of determining, without mechanical guidance or constraint, the consequences of the players' actions and choices.

In a system without morale rules, for example, a GM who has the monsters break of combat and flee may be doing one of several things. Perhaps s/he is saving the players from the risk of a TPK. Perhaps s/he is deliberately adding to the adversity of the situation - now instead of cutting them down, you have to chase them and cut them down. But I don't think s/he can easily and plausibly say "I was just playing my NPC/monster accordig to its character - I'm not responsible for how it changed the situation."

Mechanics are a device for divesting (or, perhaps, pooling - because everyone has defined ways in which they can affect the mechanical resolution) this sort of responsibiilty for outcomes.

The way you're describing things, it appears to me like you're advocating guard rails on the GM. Structures to keep him constrained, or from a player's perspective, "fair". My position on this sort of thing is that if you can't trust a GM without guard rails, you can't trust him, period. If you can trust him with the guard rails, he's trustworthy, also period.
I'm not talking about "guard rails", and I think that your reading of me in that way suggests that we may think about the activity of RPGing quite differently.

I'm interested in responsibility and surprise. As I said above, I want unexpected things to happen. For unexpected things to happen, it has to be the case (I think) that no single participant in the game gets to decide, in a definitive fashion, the way that any given interesting event resolves. (Boring events, like restocking iron rations, I'm happy to pass over very quickly and just let the players make the appropriate changes on their character sheets.) Good mechanics, by this criterion, provide resolutions that aren't at the dictate of any single participant (including the GM).

The issue of responsibiity is related. If the GM is responsible for how things resolve, then the GM is in the awkward position of having both to pose the challenges - be they hordes of orcs attacking the town, or uncooperative bureaucrats stopping the PCs finding out what they want to know - and deciding whether or not the players attempts at having their PCs overcome those challenges succeed. I'm happy to take responsibility for posing challenges, and if the challenges fall flat that's on me. (Part of the measure of a good system, then, is the support it gives me in designing challenges that won't fall flat - this is related both to build rules, and to certain aspects of resolution rules.) But in general I don't want to take responsibility for whether the players succeed - I don't want that conflict of interest. The players' success or failure is on them and the dice.

That's not to say that I'm never going to exercise mercy. But generally, I want that mercy to operate at the scene-framing level, not the action resolution level. For instance, the one time in my 4e game there was a TPK, for example, I discussed with the players who wanted to start a new PC and who didn't, and those who wanted to keep their PCs began the next session with their PC regaining consciousness locked in a prison cell. (The 4e rules permit this, because they don't equate 0 hp with death.)

But it is clear to everyone involved that this is not an application of the action resolution mechanics. The mechanics having been applied, and the scene having been resolved (the PCs were soundly defeated), I have framed a new scene which builds logically on the previous one within the parameters permitted by its resolution. And there is no conflict of interest in framing a scene sympathetically rather than harshly. In fact, I think a big part of learning how to GM well is getting a sense for what scenes are best framed in response to the outcome of prior scenes. (This is part of avoiding the framing of scenes that fall flat.)

There are complexities in the above - for example, is deciding who a monster attacks in a combat best conceived of as an exercise in action resolution (to be settled via the movement and reach rules plus GM fiat), or as a little mini scene-framing within the broader scene? I do my best to treat it as the latter rather than the former - so to treat it as a reframing of the scene, with the goal as GM being to make sure it doesn't fall flat - and then, having framed a scene, to play my monster all out and do my best to wipe out those pesky PCs!
 

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pemerton

Legend
Whereas the mental and social combat rules in Strands of Fate do require the affected characters (PC or otherwise) to alter their outlook. Potentially all characters can be affected as much as physical combat can affect all characters as well.
The Dying Earth is similar in this respect - social conflict can change a PCs' minds/outlook. (There is a sidebar with an option for those groups who don't like this sort of thing - from memory, it involves the player buying off the GM by doing favours in the real world.)

I wasn't meaning to imply that this couldn't be so, just that it needn't be so even in a system that allows PC vs PC (which was the point of my reference to Burning Wheel).
 

pemerton

Legend
I think it is more akin to how a player makes decisions about his own character. Some players really try to get into their character's head and see things from the character'spoint of view. Some people just act like themselves, other metagame. Its a big range. Same with GMs. Some try to see things from the NPCs view, some try to have npcs react in a way that is "best" for the adventures, others essentially play themselves. What is actually going is probably quite complex and could certainly be dissected.
For the reasons I gave upthread, I don't think the player and GM are in symmetrical positions here. The players primary job is to play his/her PC as s/he sees him/her. But, at least as I see it, the GM's primary job is to provide adversity for the PCs, and so something for the players to push against. Hence the potential for conficts of interest that a GM can be subject to, but from which a player is immune.
 

pemerton

Legend
I'm not 100% sold on my system - there's a "seduction" technique embedded into the mechanics: you can make minor requests, which tend to grant more bonuses on your checks, and following up on previous actions grants a bonus to future checks; then, when you've got the NPC right where you want them, you make your "move" on the final check to overcome their obstinacy. Maybe that's what I want to say about human interaction, I don't know

<snip>

The colour of the challenge - what the PCs says, what the NPC does in response - provides value to choices in its own way, but that's too complicated for me to really understand.
When I use skill challenges for social resolution, they're not as structured as what you describe here. So I don't think my system says anything in particular about human interaction (at least, not consciously). I primarily rely on the colour to provide the value to the choices made: being seen as strong, weak, honourable, loyal, trustworthy etc (and this affects the actions attempted by the PCs, which in turn affect the skill that is actually checked). This colour within the skill challenge depends in turn on other colour built up around the PCs via race, class, paragon path etc.

by this I mean, "used sensibly and not in the asinine way they're used in the original 4e DMG." The original published skill challenge system needs to die in a fire.
I personally don't agree with this. There are problems with the originally published DCs, and in general the maths of skill challenges are tricky in a system with such disparate and highly scaling bonuses (Essentials compensates for this via the two expedients of (i) the rather ad hoc "advantage" mechanic, and (ii) giving XP whether the PCs win or lose).

But the actual structure of the system as presented in the DMG and PHB - GM narrates situation, player narrates PC's interaction with situation, a skill check is specified and resolved generating a change in the situation to be narrated by the GM, continue until the mechanics oblige the GM to narrate either success (N successes) or failure (3 failures) - I think is quite workable, and perhaps even has some strengths over other systems.

For example, in Burning Wheel the rules require narration as well as rolling at each exchange in a Duel of Wits, but in many cases the dice can be rolled without much narration having taken place - it might only be when it comes time to work out the content of a compromise that the lack of narration makes itself felt mechanically. Whereas in a skill challenge, run as the books describe, there has to be narration at every point, because the player can't say what his/her PC is doing until the GM narrates the scene, and the skill check can't be made until the player has narrated what his/her PC is doing and the appropriate skill and DC therefore determined by the GM.
 

For the reasons I gave upthread, I don't think the player and GM are in symmetrical positions here. The players primary job is to play his/her PC as s/he sees him/her. But, at least as I see it, the GM's primary job is to provide adversity for the PCs, and so something for the players to push against. Hence the potential for conficts of interest that a GM can be subject to, but from which a player is immune.

I dont think this makes immersion in character for the GM impossible or even all that difficult.
 

LostSoul

Adventurer
I dont think this makes immersion in character for the GM impossible or even all that difficult.

No, but immersion in character makes being an impartial arbiter difficult. As I understand it, when you're immersed in role-playing a character, you're seeing things from their point of view. If they want something, you want the same thing. When the game calls upon you to make a judgement call, you have to snap out of that viewpoint and make an impartial judgement.

Going to the dice makes this easier: when I feel an internal conflict arise in an NPC, based on my immersion in that NPC, I go to the dice and let the result shape how the NPC resolves that internal conflict. The mechanics help resolve the DM's conflict of interest between immersion in an NPC and, at the same time, having to make judgement calls as an impartial arbiter. Because the NPC didn't know how to react to the player's action (the reason why a check was called for in the first place), you don't have to break immersion - just let the dice resolve the internal conflict.
 

No, but immersion in character makes being an impartial arbiter difficult. As I understand it, when you're immersed in role-playing a character, you're seeing things from their point of view. If they want something, you want the same thing. When the game calls upon you to make a judgement call, you have to snap out of that viewpoint and make an impartial judgement.

Sure, but if you are merely adjudicating the NPCs reaction to what the pcs are doing, it is a olus if your wants and the NPC's wants are aligned. I find it very much helps me to be immersed, because I know where the NPCs breaking points are. I know what is likely and unlikely to persuade him, cause him fear, etc. I know how far he will go before spilliing his guts.

Going to the dice makes this easier: when I feel an internal conflict arise in an NPC, based on my immersion in that NPC, I go to the dice and let the result shape how the NPC resolves that internal conflict. The mechanics help resolve the DM's conflict of interest between immersion in an NPC and, at the same time, having to make judgement calls as an impartial arbiter. Because the NPC didn't know how to react to the player's action (the reason why a check was called for in the first place), you don't have to break immersion - just let the dice resolve the internal conflict.

there is nothing wrong with using dice at all. I am merely arguing that immersion is possible for the GM and I personally experience it on a regular basis. I do allow social rolls as well from time to time. For me though, probably because I run mostly investigations, i much prefer to respond specifically to what PCs say. But yes there are ging to be times when I do ask for the roll. If a player tries to order around a grunt at a military camp, but has no offical rank (maybe is just acting official) I will likely ask for a roll (unless the specificsof what he is saying and doing lead me to believe success or failure is pretty certain).

I don't want to come across as being against rolls for this stuff (my own games have skills like rhetoric and deception). I would just say I am ambivalent about them and cautious about any further layering of procedure (such as skill challenges) because I do find (for me) social skills can impact Immersion if not used judiciously. I certainly thonk it is possible to not use them, and wouldn't describe doing so as a system.
 

LostSoul

Adventurer
Sure, but if you are merely adjudicating the NPCs reaction to what the pcs are doing, it is a olus if your wants and the NPC's wants are aligned. I find it very much helps me to be immersed, because I know where the NPCs breaking points are. I know what is likely and unlikely to persuade him, cause him fear, etc. I know how far he will go before spilliing his guts.

I agree with you, that immersion can really help you bring the NPC to life and figure out how the reacts to the PC's actions. What I find difficult to do as DM is, if I want the NPC to get his way (because I'm immersed in the NPC), adjudicate things that are outside the NPC's influence. For example: The PCs tell the NPC a lie and you're not sure if he'll fall for it. If the NPC believes it, he's not going to get his way. As DM you know the truth. Immersed in the NPC, you want him to get his way. How do you resolve, impartially, if the NPC believes the lie or not?

That's where I find mechanics coming in helpful. I can put aside my conflict of interest as DM and let the dice handle it. Not to say this is the "one true way" to handle social situations, I'm just trying to explain why I like social conflict mechanics and how I use them.

there is nothing wrong with using dice at all. I am merely arguing that immersion is possible for the GM and I personally experience it on a regular basis.

Agreed, me too.

I don't want to come across as being against rolls for this stuff (my own games have skills like rhetoric and deception). I would just say I am ambivalent about them and cautious about any further layering of procedure (such as skill challenges) because I do find (for me) social skills can impact Immersion if not used judiciously. I certainly thonk it is possible to not use them, and wouldn't describe doing so as a system.

I agree with you here as well! :)
 

I agree with you, that immersion can really help you bring the NPC to life and figure out how the reacts to the PC's actions. What I find difficult to do as DM is, if I want the NPC to get his way (because I'm immersed in the NPC), adjudicate things that are outside the NPC's influence. For example: The PCs tell the NPC a lie and you're not sure if he'll fall for it. If the NPC believes it, he's not going to get his way. As DM you know the truth. Immersed in the NPC, you want him to get his way. How do you resolve, impartially, if the NPC believes the lie or not?

I can see how one could find that tricky. I don't have this problem myself. I generally have a good enough handle on what the NPC would be willing to believe or want to believeand so just haven't had much of an issue there. I think you can reach a point with immersion where you literally believe your own lies, and the NPC is effectively unaware of the metagame ramifications of believing the PCs. This is something I've experienced many times. I concede these things could be broken down and analyzed to see what is really going on, but the important thing in my book is the experience.

Just recently I ran an adventure where the players were trying to solve a murder and one of the suspect's was a Roman from the equestrian order. He was fleshed out enough that when the players tried to deceive him, I didn'tthink twice about whether or not he bought the lines. Now believing them wasn't in his interest in terms of the adventure. But he had a strong desire to want to believe what they were saying. In playing him, I pretty much felt like I was experiencing the discussion from his point of view and had a very good sense of the opportunity he saw in the situation. But it wasn't just about self interest. He had a specific moral code and a sense of identity firmly rooted in it. i could feel this working into his decision making. Mind you, this is my description in hindsight. in the moment, i just felt like I was Ataneus Secundus speaking with Septimius the astrologer and crew.
 

pemerton

Legend
I am merely arguing that immersion is possible for the GM
I haven't disputed this, and don't dispute it. As I posted, my concern is with the potential conflict of interest. As I said upthread, I don't think that the GM and the players are symmetrically positioned.

No, but immersion in character makes being an impartial arbiter difficult.
That's true, but I think the issue goes beyond that.

As a player (at least in my case) I flesh out my PC by playing him/her. And I am free to experiment, to try things and see if the "fit" my PC, because I am not responsible for anything else.

With the GM it is different, though. When the GM is fleshing out a PC, s/he is also shaping the adversity that the PCs (and, through them, the players) will encounter. Hence, I think a more meta- perspective may often be warranted ("What do I want this NPC to do/be, given the role s/he is meant to play in the game?").

I like mechanics that put some sort of parameters or shape around the way the GM develops and complicates NPCs in the course of resolution. I think they can help keep the game focused and give the players reasonable avenues to drive things forward.
 

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