D&D 5E Magic Items in D&D Next

Patryn of Elvenshae · Jul 9, 2012

Ratskinner said:
What if it wasn't? What if eyeballing the difficulty of an encounter was both easy and forgiving?

That says to me that all challenge numbers (however they are expressed) are tuned higher - if the designers were being "honest," then they would say that an ogre is a viable challenge for 4th-level characters, but because it's a forgiving system, they actually list it as 6th-level.

Otherwise, how can it be forgiving? Or is there another way of reading forgiving that I am missing?

Stalker0 · Jul 9, 2012

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
Otherwise, how can it be forgiving? Or is there another way of reading forgiving that I am missing?

It can be forgiving if the power level ramps up slower with each level.

(Note: These numbers are completely made up). If we assume that every CR in 3e translates to 10% greater difficulty, than being off by 1 or 2 CR can roughly mean you 10-20% more difficulty than what was intended.

If 5e makes it where every CR is 5% difficulty, than the same situation is 5-10%, aka more forgiving.

Li Shenron · Jul 9, 2012

dkyle said:
The ability of the DM and players to fix the game does not excuse WotC selling a sloppy, imbalanced game.

My ability to fix my computer does not excuse Dell sending me a broken one.

My ability to fix my car does not excuse Honda selling me a broken one.

If they made 1000 versions of the game, there would still be millions of whiners saying that it needs fixing...

They make one game, they put a price tag, and you're free to buy it or not.

Realize that if you constantly think a game needs fixing, it is most likely because you just like fixing games. Consider it a privilege, that RPGs allow you to do so. You probably wouldn't find other people to play your fixed version of chess or bridge except for maybe the first night.

Minigiant · Jul 9, 2012

Ratskinner said:
Honestly, I just don't see it as being that sensitive. I think we're too used to a 3e/4e mindset where a challenge that's more than 2 units away from party level is a big deal. 3e/4e are set up to be that way.

What if it wasn't? What if eyeballing the difficulty of an encounter was both easy and forgiving? In my experience, this need to finely tune the power of any encounter is a product of the later editions and their ever-escalating power curves. Removing that curve (i.e. Bounded Accuracy) removes a great deal of the level-based sensitivity of the system in the first place.

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
That says to me that all challenge numbers (however they are expressed) are tuned higher - if the designers were being "honest," then they would say that an ogre is a viable challenge for 4th-level characters, but because it's a forgiving system, they actually list it as 6th-level.

Otherwise, how can it be forgiving? Or is there another way of reading forgiving that I am missing?

Stalker0 said:
It can be forgiving if the power level ramps up slower with each level.

(Note: These numbers are completely made up). If we assume that every CR in 3e translates to 10% greater difficulty, than being off by 1 or 2 CR can roughly mean you 10-20% more difficulty than what was intended.

If 5e makes it where every CR is 5% difficulty, than the same situation is 5-10%, aka more forgiving.

Maybe.

But 5e iss giving me this "Bounded Accuracy Unbounded Damage Quadratic Hit Points" feel.

Half of the playtest summaries I see are full of TPKs.

Blackwarder · Jul 9, 2012

Minigiant said:
Half of the playtest summaries I see are full of TPKs.

that's a good thing in my book, my two play testing groups nearly TPK because they kept going like it was 4e and expecting to get handed encounters of a silver plater, after they realized that they can't enter a cave all fat and happy the game became much more interesting .

Warder

Shadeydm · Jul 9, 2012

Minigiant said:
Maybe.

But 5e iss giving me this "Bounded Accuracy Unbounded Damage Quadratic Hit Points" feel.

Half of the playtest summaries I see are full of TPKs.

I think part of that (at least how it applied to our group) was due to the playstyle conflict. We have been playing 4E for so long we have grow used to uber powerful neigh invulnerable PCs that can charge into any situation and come out on top. Our DM set up an ambush in the play test with our 4E mind set we just charged right into the teeth of it. It was amusing looking at the reactions around the room everyone being so shocked that we were getting our clocks cleaned. If everyone had been playing 1E for the past year I seriously doubt there would have been nearly as many TPKs. Its all about playstyle and expectations.

When you first learned to play 1E you typically learned to explore cautiously and learned of your mortality early on. In 4E you get bloodied routinely and your defender gets dropped to negatives and gets right back up again so often you become conditioned to this and not phased by it at all. It becomes the norm and effects your default playstyle.

Li Shenron · Jul 9, 2012

Minigiant said:
But 5e iss giving me this "Bounded Accuracy Unbounded Damage Quadratic Hit Points" feel.

I just have to say, "what a feeling..."

Minigiant · Jul 9, 2012

[MENTION=6688285]Blackwarder[/MENTION]
[MENTION=44243]Shadeydm[/MENTION]

Then 5E/D&D Next is encouraging a certain playstyle. It is pushing the "Gritty Scaredy Treasure Hunters" and shunning the "Big Dang Heroes" style or "Destined Protagonists" style or "Obviously Crazy to be doing this Trip seekers" playstyle.

For this to be an unity edition, should they be encouraging a low magic item, super-dangerous gameplay playstle over others?

GX.Sigma · Jul 9, 2012

Minigiant said:
 @Blackwarder 
 @Shadeydm 

Then 5E/D&D Next is encouraging a certain playstyle. It is pushing the "Gritty Scaredy Treasure Hunters" and shunning the "Big Dang Heroes" style or "Destined Protagonists" style or "Obviously Crazy to be doing this Trip seekers" playstyle.

For this to be an unity edition, should they be encouraging a low magic item, super-dangerous gameplay playstle over others?

The adventure is a direct conversion of the original Caves of Chaos, which had a certain playstyle. Obviously low lethality can be done by having fewer monsters, and combat-as-sport can be done by equally dividing the monsters into fair fights.

john112364 · Jul 9, 2012

Minigiant said:
[MENTION=6688285]Blackwarder[/MENTION]
[MENTION=44243]Shadeydm[/MENTION]

Then 5E/D&D Next is encouraging a certain playstyle. It is pushing the "Gritty Scaredy Treasure Hunters" and shunning the "Big Dang Heroes" style or "Destined Protagonists" style or "Obviously Crazy to be doing this Trip seekers" playstyle.

For this to be an unity edition, should they be encouraging a low magic item, super-dangerous gameplay playstle over others?

I think you're reading too much into the play test. They wanted to test the combat system so we got Caves of Chaos. It's a perfect setting for combat as there isn't much else in it. We haven't seen what else they have up their sleeves. The next play test may be testing character building for the pc's and encounter building for the dm's. We just don't know yet. So, while I think your complaints are valid we'll all have to wait and see what's next.

Also if you want to play the Big Dang Heroes you can always start at a higher level. That's what we did for years because we didn't like playing the Scaredy Treasure Hunters. Work out fine and we had some great campaigns.