Working in the Game Mine

Balesir

Adventurer
Thanks. But my question is--are roles prescriptive? Is there such a thing as a brute that does a lot of damage and is hard to hit? A controller that is not physically weak? etc.
I'm going to disagree with some other posters, here, in that I think the intended and primary use of monster roles in 4e is descriptive, not prescriptive. It's basically a shorthand that tells the DM what role the creature is generally most suited to play in combat (it only really applies to combat, although if the monsters have a door to bust down they'll likely look to the Brutes first to take care of it).

The matter can seem confused because of the table of HPs, AC, attack bonus and so on by role and by level in the DMG - to some this suggests that a monster of a given role and level must follow a prescribed formula. The text of the DMG, though, makes it pretty clear that some variation around these "norms" is not just allowed but expected and positively encouraged; for further evidence of this you have only to analyse published monsters against those tabulated values to see that they are frequently quite different.

The thing is, though, that carelessly applied variation can remove the descriptive value of the role and level labels. This, too, is cautioned about in the DMG. Following the monster design "guidelines", there is no reason you couldn't make a Brute with an unusually high AC, lower than usual damage and powers that tended to immobilise, slow or debuff foes attacking allies. The problem would be that what you have designed is, functionally, a Soldier rather than a Brute. Since the role is only there for your own help and guidance, and you have just given yourself a bum steer, there is really no good reason that you would do so, though.

Likewise with level. Could you design a monster that is better in all categories than the average monster of your selected role and level? Sure - but, in reality, you have just designed a higher level monster. If a DM wants to deceive him or herself and deliberately short the players, they can do that - but why would they?

The problem with defined roles is that people tend to - even subconsciously - try to fit those roles whether it makes sense or not. For example, in 4e a Fighter is defined as a Defender...fair enough, but if someone has a character in mind that is a Fighter by class but ends up more like a Striker by role, the box they have to think outside of is just that little bit thicker.
First off, the article is talking about monster roles, rather than class roles - and the functions of these two things (in 4E) are very different.

Secondly, the roles for character classes are very useful for giving players a "bluffers' guide" style idea of what a class can be useful for, in combat. Given that it has value in this sense - it tells us something about what the designer had in mind when building the class mechanics - I would much rather see it included than not. Hiding stuff because it's "dangerous knowledge" that "you don't need to know" pretty much always strikes me as a dumb and frequently suspicious thing to do.
 

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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Looks like monsters don't have levels in 5th Ed, which is nice, no more auto-scaling of monsters to conveniently keep up with the players.

But it makes new monster creation a living hell.

Also no levels make quick monster picks harder.
No more "Okay I have a level 4 party so a level 1 orc will get curb stomped and a level 10 adult dragon is very very hard. So here a level 5 ogre. The ground shakes to the beat of..."
 

Balesir

Adventurer
Looks like monsters don't have levels in 5th Ed, which is nice, no more auto-scaling of monsters to conveniently keep up with the players.
Adding a number to reflect monster "toughness" in the monster entry does that?? Blimey - who knew?

I have however never needed nor want that to build juicy encounters.
Yes, I'm sure you have puissant skill and no need of tools and yadda yadda yadda.

I take the view, however, that I'll take whatever useful summary information I can get to help me with my task. I've been doing the job since around 1977, so I don't actually need the tools, but refusing them when they are freely offered would seem like both foolish hubris and pointless machismo, so I don't do it.
 

Steely_Dan

First Post
1) But it makes new monster creation a living hell.

2) Also no levels make quick monster picks harder. No more "Okay I have a level 4 party so a level 1 orc will get curb stomped and a level 10 adult dragon is very very hard. So here a level 5 ogre. The ground shakes to the beat of..."


1) How so (seems easier to me)?

2) XP wil be your guide.
 

Steely_Dan

First Post
1) Adding a number to reflect monster "toughness" in the monster entry does that??

2) Yes, I'm sure you have puissant skill and no need of tools and yadda yadda yadda.


1) What number would that be (not sure what you're talking about)?

2) Well, I'm sure there's no need to be rude, snide and condescending, I have shown none of those charming qualities towards you, is it because we approach monster/encounter design differently, or is something else bothering you?

P.S. Dig the word puissant, though.
 
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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
1) How so (seems easier to me)?

2) XP wil be your guide.

1) "A level 5 warrior style character has about X HP."
"In a high magic game, a level 10 humanoid creature would have Y gold in magic items."
"If you use the healing surge module, a level 1-10 monster has 1 healing surge. A level 11-20 creature has 2. Generally a monster has 1 healing surge plus 1 more per 10 levels.


2) XP is okay but it uses big numbers and additional steps. A level 2-8 monster for a level 5 party is so easy I can do them in seconds.
 

Chris_Nightwing

First Post
I liked that 3E gave monsters types and subtypes that made it clear how they advanced with hit dice. I also appreciated that 4E gave monsters types that made it clear what sort of thing they would do in combat.

I think my overall preference is dependent on how I see PCs and monsters in the world. I prefer that PCs are not unique in taking class levels. Not everyone does because they aren't good enough, or they aren't trained or chosen, but if you're an ordinary commoner you should be able to gain hit dice and get a few small benefits from this. Monsters should advance in a similar way, gaining whatever numbers and powers suit their 'type'. By type, I prefer 'dragons', 'animals', 'goblinoids' - to me, this is a monsters 'class'. I also think the 4E types can play a role though, as a template.

So a goblin sniper would primarily be a goblin, with some number of hit dice to tell you how advanced he is, but would then have artillery as a template, adjusting his attacks/defences and perhaps giving him a special attack. Why this way round and not the other? Because I think advanced goblin snipers should be more like other advanced goblins than advanced mephit fire-spitters.

Edit: I'll just add that with flat math, the only advancement might be HP, damage and abilities. HP should probably go up with combat role, damage similarly, and abilities.. more on the creature than role side there for me.
 
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