D&D 5E With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base

Although this might not address all your concerns in all cases, [MENTION=23935]Nagol[/MENTION], IIRC "Get Over Here" is a Melee Range 1 power. That means, it's only usable on someone adjacent to you to start with.

So, if "PC1 moves away from the group towards his love. He is unwilling to risk further harm to his love and wants to break the cage," then the Get Over Herer can't actually do anything about it.

Other "forced" ally movement abilities IM(limited)E generally don't have the "must end your mvoe adjacent" clause, meaning that they movement forcer could help your PC get closer to his ladylove.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I'm just saying that the natural questions of "why does X cause dissociated when Y doesn't?" is generally speaking a complex answer that a bunch of people are going to answer in different ways.

It's a simple question and it's been answered multiple times. It's because 'disocciation' is entirely subjective, so there's nothing but personal experience to discuss.

Justin Alexander said:
An associated mechanic is one which is connected to the game world. A disocciated mechanic is one which is not connected to the game world.
My friends and I create the game world during play. My friends and I connect the mechanics to the game world during play.

So association or disocciation can not be a property of the mechanic because whether a mechanic connects to the game world is down to the individuals creating the game world and doing the connecting.

Therefore, association or disocciation can only be a subjective experience of succeeding in making connections, or not.

And this is why the discussion turns into 40 pages of people back at each other in a forlorn attempt to show HP are, or are not, disocciated, that Come and Get It is, or is not, disocciated. There's a mistaken belief that they are describing 'the mechanic'. They are not. They are simply describing their relationship to the mechanic.

You're right, though. Saying "it's dissociated" is only a start; saying "it pulled me out of immersion" is even better; saying why it did is better still; saying why it did when Y didn't is better yet. The more things get expanded and explained, the better. It's just tricky in execution.

So the question becomes, how much value does the subjective use (or objective misuse) of disocciation add to any discussion. So here's some pairs of statements:

a) Hit Points are disocciated
b) I couldn't understand why I could run, jump and climb with 1HP just as well as I could with 100.

a) Vancian casting is disocciated
b) I couldn't understand why I forget a spell after casting it. That didn't make sense.

a) Vicious Mockery is disocciated
b) We really struggled to narrate Vicious Mockery in a way which made sense in the situation

Which of those pairs of statements says what is happening? Which allows a constructive conversation to evolve rather that simple gainsaying?
Which one tells us about an instance of play which can be discussed?

Which accepts responsibility on the part of the player for the outcomes they get during their play?

Not only is disocciation an utterly flawed and useless concept in the objective sense, even if you try to bend it into some kind of subjective shape it still adds nothing to the conversation, because in and of itself it is still empty and meaningless.

Again, this is why every 'discussion' on this topic will continue to go in never-ending circles of restating contradictory experiences.

This is they key question (and honestly I'm only interested in replies which directly address it):

How can a mechanic be disconnected from a game world in the absence of a group of people creating a game world and attempting to use the mechanic according to their preferences, priorities and experiences?
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
The response below reflects my experiences playing 3e, and my impressions from reading various forums and newsgroups along the way. It is, of course, limited in that way.

Also, sorry this is so long.

A bit puzzled, but that probably reflects my relative lack of experience with 3E play. Didn't people play 3E for esteem (eg strong builds, effective use of spells in combat, etc)? Or are you suggesting a sim pull (somewhere between moderate purist and adventure-path high concept) was more common?

When 3e first came out..."no" and "yes", in that order. 3e emerged in a world where what we now call character optimization was derided (common, but derided) with pejoratives like "munchkin" and "minmaxer". As with any edition of D&D, they weren't totally absent, but they were certainly not the main thrust of people's concerns. Much like generals prepare to fight the last war, game designers prepare to fix the sins of the previous edition of D&D. Also, yes, 3e seemed to discount "event" based esteem over "status"-based esteem. "I am now X" was usually more important than "I did X."

Many of the little changes from 2e/3e were to eliminate some of Gygax's Gamist kludges that people found objectionable. Things like Demihuman level limits and ability score requirements for classes and multiclassing. Remember that with the exception of the 1e Bard, prestige classes were a totally new idea. The focus was on the development of a character expression. They added a zillion fiddly bits like feats, skill points, and the prestige class system. The functional purpose of all those fiddly bits was (I feel) the Simulationist desire to "live the dream" and its need to defend against creeping Gamism (see below).

I don't think/know they necessarily intended to bank Simulationist while doing all that. I think it was more that removing G while holding N constant created heavier S. Since the primary G aspects of OD&D were out of vogue, you're left with emphasizing the S. (2e had demonstrated successfully that D&D is not really suited to Narrativist play without massive structural change.) I also think people have a tendency to "think" S when first designing new rules (some call this "simulationist by habit"). One odd (and often self-defeating) result of this focus was often an inability in 3e to play the character you envisioned right from the start. Even the prestige system reflects the idea that getting to play your concept was a goal of the game. You want your character to be X?...wait 6 levels and you can be close. You had to "earn" the right to be what you wanted (yet another hidden aspect of the design process that subtly favored the caster over the martial character.)

Of course, this created its own constellation of problems. Especially since the culture of D&D players changed profoundly during 3e's reign*, its weaknesses were exacerbated over time. (Whether this happens to all editions or not...I'm not sure.) Of course, this isn't true for everyone. I know from personal experience that there are people still playing 3e like its 2000, running high-concept fantasy. (And they are all like the groups described in the quote below. GM-centric, and generally isolated from the rest of the D&D community.) For the people and groups that came to hate 3e towards the end, their problems IMO precisely describe the dysfunction of a Sim game split by its own, Gamist hybridization described here:

Ron Edwards said:
Hybridization
As far as I can tell, Simulationist game design runs into a lot of potential trouble when it includes secondary hybridization with the other modes of play. Gamist or Narrativist features as supportive elements introduce the thin end of the metagame-agenda wedge. The usual result is to defend against the "creeping Gamism" with rules-bloat, or to encourage negatively-extreme deception or authority in the GM in order to preserve an intended set of plot events, which is to say, railroading. In other words, a baseline Simulationist focus is easily subverted, leading to incoherence.

Whether this issue can be resolved by future designs and Social Contracts is unknown. Speaking historically, though, AD&D2, Vampire, and Legend of the Five Rings are especially good examples of incoherent design that ends up screwing the Simulationist. You have Gamist character creation, with Narrativist rhetoric (especially in Vampire). You have High Concept Simulationist resolution, which is to say, easily subverted by Gamism because universal consistency is de-emphasized. And finally, you have sternly-worded "story" play-context, which in practice becomes game-author-to-GM co-conspiracy. The net result is a fairly committed Simulationist GM presiding over a bunch of players tending toward more agenda-based play of different kinds.

What happens? All the wedges widen, and the unfortunate thing is that the more everyone likes the basic, fun interest of the topic ("genre") at hand, the worse the rift becomes.

  • The aggravated Narrativist leaves the play situation after butting heads with the GM over the "story." Arguably, the early White Wolf games in general are responsible for what amounted to a mass exodus of Narrativist-oriented role-players from the hobby in the mid-1990s.
  • The Gamist runs rampant, moving from sportsmanlike challenge/competition (as would be found in a coherent Gamist design) to "break the system" vs.-game, vs.-GM challenge/competition. The group typically either dissolves or evicts the Gamist player; evictees find one another and enjoy themselves with gusto, Drifting the rules significantly and focusing on player-vs.-player challenge/competition. They tend to be quite public and large-group oriented, via on-line and LARP play. [AEG was clever enough to recognize this phenomenon and incorporate it into the L5R market strategy.]
  • The Simulationist, whether GM or player, fights a losing battle against the Gamist, often feeling betrayed and desperate. Simulationist groups which survive this conflict tend to be very insular, clique-ish, and GM-centered, with the GM seen as the conduit or channeller to "the game" as published. Such a GM is usually given carte blanche authority over the social, system, and plot-oriented content of the game, and the players become fairly subordinated to the content of play. The group often Drifts the rules significantly to reflect and reinforce the immediate Social Contract; simultaneously, they become defensive and protective regarding the game title as a subcultural item.

Anyway, that's how I see it. 4e is perhaps the first edition of D&D that isn't profoundly GNS-dysfunctional, but it draws fire for being "not D&D." All versions of D&D are strongly G/s or S/g, with 2e arguably being the most dysfunctional with its strong narrative desires but no mechanical narrative support. (What does it say about me that 2e is my favorite ed?:uhoh:) It remains to be seen whether 5e can somehow steady the whipsawing between G and S, and successfully hybridize the two in a game that still hits "D&D" for most people.

*For a wide variety of reasons, including: changes in the way "gamers" were viewed by the general public, the increased acceptability of fantasy in contemporary art, the popularity of computer-based fantasy games, etc.
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
Say rather 4e took a big, explicit step back to the Gamist side of things. All versions of D&D from Gary Gygax are extremely gamist, with XP for GP and the object being to loot dungeons. If you want to force gamism out of D&D then you need to force out Gygax and Arneson.

True, although I would tend to say that the earlier editions are not nearly so Gamist as people seem to think. There are plenty of strong simulationist bents and concessions in old-school D&D as well. Heck, heavy-handed Alignment is a Narrativist mechanic that's been increasingly deprecated as the editions march on. Yes, I know of Gygax's quotes on the subject....I just think he wasn't as good at assessing his own work as he was inventing hobbies.;)
 

Hussar

Legend
Nagol said:
Has PC1 changed his mind? Is he setting aside his tactical goal to help take down the BBEG or does the move simply delay him a round as he shifts back? What stirred him so hard he took several involuntary steps away from his goal? How does his love react to his sudden turn-about with respect to both PC1 and PC2? How will PC1 feel towards himself and towards PC2 should the love die because the combat goes too long?

OTOH, isn't this opening up a whole range of RP opportunities that would not be available if those mechanics were not present? The two players come up with an acceptable description of the narrative, since both are invested in making the game interesting they probably should embrace the idea of "yes and" just as much as the DM.

So, the questions you bring up are excellent ones and probably the best argument I've seen in a while for why we should have effects that do not have a direct correlation to events in the game.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
Re:
How can a mechanic be disconnected from a game world in the absence of a group of people creating a game world and attempting to use the mechanic according to their preferences, priorities and experiences?

Let's pop over to a favourite game system of mine for a minute: Champions

In that game systems all abilities are created by the player from building blocks and all abilities start off disassociated.

Character A has a 9d6 Energy Blast (EB). Mechanically, it is mostly defined. When character A succssfuly targets an opponent, he rolls 9d6 damage. We need to add more more piece of information to complete its mechanical association -- what defence the victim applies to the damage. Let's say is Physical Defence (PD).

So character a has a 9d6 EB vs. PD. There's a mechanical definition of the power.

So how is character A's ise of the power in the game world described? Does he throw his hand at people? Does he issue a massive shout? Does he fire bean bags rounds from a gun? Perhaps its projectiles of raw kinetic force?

The next step for character A is to associate how the mechanical ability of 9d6 vs. PD fits in the game world. Some of those associations will impact how effective the ability is and mechanically the cost of the power will change - perhaps he fires bean bags from a gun -- so the gun can be lost, there are only so many shells carried, and so on. Perhaps it is projections of magical force that slams into the opponent that are invisible to the naked eye, but can be perceived by those with magical senses.

Other associations don't affect the value of the power, but affect how other powers in the game will interact with it -- is the ability magical in nature and as such suppressable/dispelable? Does it require an electrical supply and thus can be negated by anything that can stop electrical transfer?

Further associations are how the ability manifests -- what does it look like to third parties -- this helps guide how those observers react.

So a 9d6 EB vs. Pd can be anything from bean bags fired from a gun, magical bolts of invisble energy, concentrated spray of high-pressure water, or any other effect in the game world tha the player can describe that will fit the mechanical description.

So let's see how we can model Come and Get It shall we?

The fluff suggests it should be a charismatic ability, but there are no limits to the sort of creatures can be taunted, teased, or otherwise convinced to come to the character.

Perhaps a mental ability? But there are no restrictions or differences between pulling a close melee combatant that would naturally pleasd to get close and a creature whose only ability is ranged combat and should be deathly afraid and complete against getting that close.

Probably the best match is a small area telekinesis. This will affect most opponent types (to affect ghosts and such will require mechanical advantage), can be limited to the just pulling the opponent into position -- but now we must deal with the lack of mass limitaiton. Let's sidestep that for the moment and go with telekinesis. So what is the in-game justification for the ability -- the power source as it were. Martial. So puissant skill at arms and strong martial training lets the character telekinetically yank opponents into range to be sliced with the melee weapon. Maybe not.

OK so possibly it's not a power easily modeled in the other game system.

Perhaps we won't associate the power with the game world just yet and say "The player will associate the power at each use choosing an association that makes sense for that opponent within the constraints of a martial ability."

What does this do? It leaves the abilitiy disassociated with an implicit contract for the player to fill in the blanks as best he can; sometimes its a taunt, other times it's the opponents getting over-confident and just charging forward. It stops being a single thing and becomes a situation common to the character. There is no consistent reason opponents get so close to the character; it just happens as a matter of course. The player is affecting not only his own character, but the motivations and actions of the opponents affected by the power. What happens when the player gets lazy, distracted, or just can't think of a rationale that applies right now? The ability gets used bare or someone steps in and says "No it doesn't work this time."

Imagine that I'm a "lazy" player. I don't want to continually rationalise why my opponents make this tactical error. So I say (with the appropriate dice rolls) "I use come and Get It and move the opponents from here to here and they take this much damage." In what way is that asociated with the in-game fiction? We see the results, but not the cause.

You may call it bad play; it most likely is since the player agreed to to implicit contract when he took the power. Despite that, it is play that sound under the rules of the game. RAW vs. RAI.
 

D'karr

Adventurer
Imagine that I'm a "lazy" player. I don't want to continually rationalise why my opponents make this tactical error. So I say (with the appropriate dice rolls) "I use come and Get It and move the opponents from here to here and they take this much damage." In what way is that asociated with the in-game fiction? We see the results, but not the cause.

You may call it bad play; it most likely is since the player agreed to to implicit contract when he took the power. Despite that, it is play that sound under the rules of the game. RAW vs. RAI.

If I'm a "lazy" player I would expect that nothing would be associated in the in-game fiction. And I mean nothing. Every single rule will not have an in-game connection.

Encounter 1 - Talking to the King
Lazy player - I roll my diplomacy check, 23.

Encounter 2 - Combat with the Balrog
Lazy player - I roll to attack, 23 "Booyah"

I don't think that any of the game mechanics are going to create the connection to the in-game world.
 

Hussar

Legend
If I'm a "lazy" player I would expect that nothing would be associated in the in-game fiction. And I mean nothing. Every single rule will not have an in-game connection.

Encounter 1 - Talking to the King
Lazy player - I roll my diplomacy check, 23.

Encounter 2 - Combat with the Balrog
Lazy player - I roll to attack, 23 "Booyah"

I don't think that any of the game mechanics are going to create the connection to the in-game world.

But, I do think this gets to the very heart of the issue. I believe, and I could be wrong here, that those who dislike dissociated mechanics think that the mechanics themselves create connections to the in-game world.
 

D'karr

Adventurer
But, I do think this gets to the very heart of the issue. I believe, and I could be wrong here, that those who dislike dissociated mechanics think that the mechanics themselves create connections to the in-game world.

That may be so.

I guess that in D&D (any edition) I'd have a very rough time saying that was the case for almost every single rule.

So much so, that "off the top of my head", I can't think of one rule that would be associated under the context of the "lazy player."

The DM and players create their association at the game table. If the description from the DM is under the auspices of the "lazy player" it might look something like this:

Encounter 1
Lazy DM: The thief is trying to talk to you.
Lazy Player: I roll my insight to see if he's lying, 16.
Lazy DM: His bluff modifier is +20 you don't think he's lying.

Encounter 2
Lazy DM: You enter a room with 4 creatures. Roll for initiative.
Lazy player: I roll a 19.
Lazy DM: You go first.
Lazy Player: I move 6 inches and attack, I rolled a 9.
Lazy DM: His AC is 16. You miss. The 4 orcs attack. (rolls) 4,9,24,17. 2 hits. They do (rolls) 8 points of damage.

What association would you be able to get "in-game" with that?
 

So let's see how we can model Come and Get It shall we?

Nagol, I appreciate the lengthy post. I hope this one doesn't come across as snarky.

So to use your example of modelling Come and Get It in Champions: Are you telling me that:

I cannot model Come and Get It in Champions in a way that I find adequately connected to the game world when I play with my friends in my group?

I can't see how you possibly justify such an assertion. And without justifying that assertion you can not say that the Champions version of Come and Get It is objectively disocciated. It must be subjective.

Given that, using your example, which of these tells us something:

a) Champions Come and Get is disocciated
b) I couldn't figure out whether Champions Come and Get it should be charisma-based, or intelligence based or something else

What information is associated and disocciated telling me? It tells me nothing that your example - without the use of the words associated and disocciated - tells me.

What it does do is provide the ongoing basis for believing (incorrectly) that the mechanic is the problem, rather than the mismatch between your priorities and preferences (which you stated quite honestly - kudos) and the mechanic.

Since I don't share those preferences I don't have the problem.

Can you now see how the concept of disocciation goes nowhere?
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top