Pathfinder Review: Pathfinder Battles - Rise of the Runelords Miniatures

Sorry to bang on about this, I'm not usually the message board attack dog type, but I don't think you did Steelwind. Your answers a bit all over the shop really. You appear to be saying that because Dungeon Command's price isn't high enough allow free p&p from miniature market you had to compare it with the full RRP. But that's neither here nor there really. What if you are buying something else with Dungeon Command to allow free p&p? What if (like most people) you are buying Paizo minis but not an entire set and aren't eligible for p&p? Heck, what if your actually buying both and getting free p&p for both?

It seems a tad odd that you didn't just compare like with like. Sorry to put this one part of your otherwise really good review under such scrutiny, but when your writing as you put it "the official review" it's important not to do the readers a disservice.

Jools,

Shipping and handling on Dungeon Command from Miniature Market is $8.65. The math remains true from the review and post #6 explained it. And given your last post, you clearly understood that perfectly well. Apparently you wanted me to make assumptions which are different than what the review discussed -- and thereby take the entire discussion out of the context that appeared in the review.

When I am discussing the cost of purchasing a set, I am not going to discuss the cost as if one was buying that set a single-booster-at-a-time. No, not even if you would prefer that I did.

As for "not usually being an attack dog" and "seems a tad odd"... the passive aggressive stuff I can do without. It was an attack then -- it's an attack now. You are perfectly entitled to attack me all you would like. Take as much as you want; fill your boots.

The review was fair and I stand by it. You are entitled to another opinion.

(And this is why I don't think it is wise to reply to my own reviews. I should follow my own advice.)

Jools said:

Sorry to bang on about this, I'm not usually the message board attack dog type, but I don't think you did Steelwind. Your answers a bit all over the shop really. You appear to be saying that because Dungeon Command's price isn't high enough allow free p&p from miniature market you had to compare it with the full RRP. But that's neither here nor there really. What if you are buying something else with Dungeon Command to allow free p&p? What if (like most people) you are buying Paizo minis but not an entire set and aren't eligible for p&p? Heck, what if your actually buying both and getting free p&p for both?

It seems a tad odd that you didn't just compare like with like. Sorry to put this one part of your otherwise really good review under such scrutiny, but when your writing as you put it "the official review" it's important not to do the readers a disservice.

Click to expand...

Having both sets of Dungeon Command and the Heroes and Monsters Set for Pathfinder and a preorder of the Rise of the Runelords case, I can safely tell you that Dungeon Command is a terrible comparison of the Pathfinder Mini's.

Dungeon Command is terribly presented and to be honest I would only ever buy another set in the future to fill some creatures out that I don't have. They are just more of a marker to present a creature and that is all. They are not greatly painted and the molds are being re-used by WotC. Why they could not come up with at least ONE new mold in the line per set is beyond me and I think a huge mistake. Dungeon command is expensive even if you play the game, if you don't play the in box game that is included with it (Which I don't) then they are ridiculously expensive! The paint jobs suck for them as well.. not a single wash, no dry brushing, just some colors on a mini. Not really well done at all.

Heroes and Monsters are fantastic and one I am proud to own. In fact when I go to events and the like everyone loves them and wants to use them for their games if I am not. Rise of the Runelords I am looking forward to and can hardly wait and knowing that I will be getting them in two days from the FLGS I preordered them from makes me cringe as I feel like a kid on Christmas eve and can't wait to open my presents.

The cost of each mini is not overly bad from Rise of the Runelords set IMHO and if you ask me if there is a discount involved take advantage of it and get an even lower price. For the paint jobs on these mini's I think the per mini cost is MORE then worth it as it saves me lots of time and they are fantastic!!

If I compare them to the last DDM set then Rise of the Runelords set generally pales in comparison. The cost/mini is stretching even higher with only 4 minis for $18.99 that doesn't include a Huge (and the price for the random purchase of H&M monsters was awful) and in the previous DDM sets with a visible Large (and often two larges) and one more mini was $4.00 less.

And that doesn't account for aesthetics, which are not only subjective but each set has better and not-so-good minis. But in the end I look at the value as well as the minis. In order to receive the same number of minis with the new Pathfinder set compared to the last set of WotC miniatures WotC $24.99 for a booster while to get the same number of minis in this set it would be $38.97 - $40.97. That's quite a price difference.

I've ordered a few singles post GenCon after checking out a few there, and the plastic is better, but the value is simply not there in comparision if trying to pick up a whole set.

Herschel said:

If I compare them to the last DDM set then Rise of the Runelords set generally pales in comparison. The cost/mini is stretching even higher with only 4 minis for $18.99 that doesn't include a Huge (and the price for the random purchase of H&M monsters was awful) and in the previous DDM sets with a visible Large (and often two larges) and one more mini was $4.00 less.

And that doesn't account for aesthetics, which are not only subjective but each set has better and not-so-good minis. But in the end I look at the value as well as the minis. In order to receive the same number of minis with the new Pathfinder set compared to the last set of WotC miniatures WotC $24.99 for a booster while to get the same number of minis in this set it would be $38.97 - $40.97. That's quite a price difference.

I've ordered a few singles post GenCon after checking out a few there, and the plastic is better, but the value is simply not there in comparision if trying to pick up a whole set.

Click to expand...

Heschel comparing DDM to the Pathfiinder Mini's is not even close to reasonable but everyone tries to do it regardless. There is a reason DDM went out of business. They could NOT keep up with the cost any more and the sales were waning. The quality was certainly NOT there for DDM either. I own quite a few DDM mini's (about 6 sets worth (full)) and I am more impressed with the Pathfinder Mini's.

The cost per mini is a little more but not so much that I would not still buy them myself. Complaining about the cost per mini while comparing it to DDM is not a fair comparison. It would be like comparing a computer from the year 2000 to one of today. While yes the one from 2000 might still work and get on the internet the computer from today makes those look tragically inadequate.

Cost needs to be more or they would not be able to produce them at a profit without that being what it is. DDM they were going to loose money if they kept that price going. Trust me they were increasing the cost with each set too... that means that the cost would have come in line eventually with what the Pathfinder minis are today or a close proximity.

Nikmal said:

Heschel comparing DDM to the Pathfiinder Mini's is not even close to reasonable but everyone tries to do it regardless. There is a reason DDM went out of business. They could NOT keep up with the cost any more and the sales were waning. The quality was certainly NOT there for DDM either. I own quite a few DDM mini's (about 6 sets worth (full)) and I am more impressed with the Pathfinder Mini's.

The cost per mini is a little more but not so much that I would not still buy them myself. Complaining about the cost per mini while comparing it to DDM is not a fair comparison. It would be like comparing a computer from the year 2000 to one of today. While yes the one from 2000 might still work and get on the internet the computer from today makes those look tragically inadequate.

Cost needs to be more or they would not be able to produce them at a profit without that being what it is. DDM they were going to loose money if they kept that price going. Trust me they were increasing the cost with each set too... that means that the cost would have come in line eventually with what the Pathfinder minis are today or a close proximity.

Click to expand...

It's a completely legitimate comparison. The last DDM set was not that long ago. The quality of minis is comparable for anyone taking an honest look (there are good and bad in each line, and tastes will vary even on which fit which category though the Pathfinder Ogres and Ettins are much worse than the worst DDM ones, for example, and there was a ....not good DDM Ettin).

There is also some variation from set-to-set. The last DDM set was tremendous. This set is looking better than H&M, which overall was kind of poor.

A reasonable increase from DDM would be understandable, but they took a MAJOR jump (60%!). The last non-huge DDM set went for $14.99 per booster and Whiz Kids/Paizo took a 47% price jump.

Herschel said:

It's a completely legitimate comparison. The last DDM set was not that long ago. The quality of minis is comparable for anyone taking an honest look (there are good and bad in each line, and tastes will vary even on which fit which category though the Pathfinder Ogres and Ettins are much worse than the worst DDM ones, for example, and there was a ....not good DDM Ettin).

There is also some variation from set-to-set. The last DDM set was tremendous. This set is looking better than H&M, which overall was kind of poor.

A reasonable increase from DDM would be understandable, but they took a MAJOR jump (60%!). The last non-huge DDM set went for $14.99 per booster and Whiz Kids/Paizo took a 47% price jump.

Click to expand...

Hmm I guess the Gold Ennie the H&M set got this last voting period agrees mainly with me and not your view point. Not to mention the fact that the DDM line is defunct for a reason. Mainly cost effectiveness over quality and quantity. There was a ton of complaints over the quality of miniatures and paint jobs with DDM's and for good reason. There were whole sets where the paint jobs and or the quality of the miniatures was nigh on to laughable. Which is a sad thing.

I am not saying that the Wizkids Miniatures is near perfect but when comparing them to DDM miniatures I will take Pathfinder Miniatures every single day of the week over DDM. This is coming from a person that owns several sets and spent thousands of dollars on them, regrettably on more then one occasion. Most of my friends and a lot of people at my local game store are in agreement with me on this.

I was loyal for 35 years to the Dungeons and Dragons line of Role Playing and WotC had to screw that up in a royal way in my opinion and I was a fan of the DDM miniatures but again WotC screwed that up on more then one occasion as well. So badly in some cases... they stopped making them for a reason. I am also sorry to add that the recent line called Dungeon Command reusing sculpts from the DDM line and reissuing them under a different guise is not a good thing even if it is NOT random, it is sad that there is not even 1 new sculpt in the set... sad indeed.

Whiz-Kids is still making miniatures for a reason... they got a good formula going for price points vs quality and seem to be doing well enough that they can produce new lines of miniatures one of which was for Pathfinder in H&M and now RotRL as well with Shattered Star being released in January. One has to ask oneself how are they able to continue them successfully.

Nikmal said:

Hmm I guess the Gold Ennie the H&M set got this last voting period agrees mainly with me and not your view point. Not to mention the fact that the DDM line is defunct for a reason. Mainly cost effectiveness over quality and quantity. There was a ton of complaints over the quality of miniatures and paint jobs with DDM's and for good reason. There were whole sets where the paint jobs and or the quality of the miniatures was nigh on to laughable. Which is a sad thing.

I am not saying that the Wizkids Miniatures is near perfect but when comparing them to DDM miniatures I will take Pathfinder Miniatures every single day of the week over DDM. This is coming from a person that owns several sets and spent thousands of dollars on them, regrettably on more then one occasion. Most of my friends and a lot of people at my local game store are in agreement with me on this.

I was loyal for 35 years to the Dungeons and Dragons line of Role Playing and WotC had to screw that up in a royal way in my opinion and I was a fan of the DDM miniatures but again WotC screwed that up on more then one occasion as well. So badly in some cases... they stopped making them for a reason. I am also sorry to add that the recent line called Dungeon Command reusing sculpts from the DDM line and reissuing them under a different guise is not a good thing even if it is NOT random, it is sad that there is not even 1 new sculpt in the set... sad indeed.

Whiz-Kids is still making miniatures for a reason... they got a good formula going for price points vs quality and seem to be doing well enough that they can produce new lines of miniatures one of which was for Pathfinder in H&M and now RotRL as well with Shattered Star being released in January. One has to ask oneself how are they able to continue them successfully.

Click to expand...

LoL, and what about the awards DDM won? DDM had it's ups & downs, nobody's denying that.

1. Post War Drums they had some hit & miss with new sculpting, paints steps, etc.
2. The sets with the visibles were not a good move, they listened to market noise and those that complained they wouldn't buy without seeing still didn't.
3. Whiz Kids have their own defunct lines like Mage Knight, etc. So your argument there is ridiculous. And a lot of their minis have sucked hard long before this and they've been doing it longer.
4. Who's lauding Dungeon Command as a Superior Minis product? It's a miniature skirmish game that's not nearly as fun (for me anyway) as the old one. There's a couple of new sculpts in the Cormyr box so I picked it up (and to try out the game with friends). There aren't in the Drow, so I didn't.
5. Where you really lose .... standing as an impartial viewer(?) is where you say you'll take Pathfinder minis over DDM any day of the week. Only a Paizo warrior would say something so ridiculous. They're a very similar product, both with ups & downs, weird sculpts, good and bad sculpts and paint. Dangerous Delves was a low point for DDM, the last set was tremendous. H&M was mostly crap, Rise is very nice overall. The steep increase in price is where Paizo/Whiz Kids lose there value compared to DDM. But if their rabid followers are willing to shell out the greatly increased prices for them, so be it.
6. And that's not to say I'm not buying some because there are some nice figures in there. I've picked up a few singles from Auggies already*. I'm just not going to shell out like I did for DDM because the price point has gone beyond reasonable to grab sets/multiples.

*Shipped, not yet in hand.

Skeld said:

Good review, although I'm waaay more concerned about the condition the miniatures arrive in than the packaging they use. As soon as minis start showing up broken, I become a very sad customer (especially at those prices).

-Skeld

Click to expand...

While the prices are high, broken minis shouldn't be much of an issue. The new plastic will alleviate most of that problem.

Herschel said:

While the prices are high, broken minis shouldn't be much of an issue. The new plastic will alleviate most of that problem.

Click to expand...

On the strength of this EN World review, I finally bit the bullet and bought some boosters and a bunch of single, 90%+ of which were from the new Rise of the Runelords set.

I'm a huge DDM collector. I can state with confidence that the quality of the Pathfinder sculpts is impressive, and the paint jobs at least satisfactory (...although, worth noting, not as good as most of the photos - some of which must be production masters). However, I can also state that I'm very disappointed in the quantity of broken minis and deformed plastic.

Approximately 30% of all minis received (either boosters or individuals - and the latter were carefully packed with foam peanuts) were broken in some way. Head snapped off lamia... wing and horns broken off alu-demon... akie broken off her base... redcap scythe blade snapped off... lamia matriach arm broken off... etc. I even have a few minis where paint has "chipped", which caught me by surprise. You can accidentally step on a DDM mini (after microwaving it...) and it won't effect the paint job, but the Pathfinder minis seem to be much more fragile.

Of the remainder, anything with thin plastic (stone giant spears, karzoug's polearm, etc) looks like a banana or, in some extreme cases, like a horseshoe. I've tried the "hot water treatment" that usually fixes DDM minis, but they're far less responsive to that.

At this stage, I won't be purchasing again unless it's specifically a mini with no protruding "bits" (arms, weapons, etc), or unless the plastic is changed significantly. For reference, I have hundreds of MageKnight and HeroClix figures, and I've never seen this level of damage before.

It's a shame, because I really do like many of the sculpts.

On the upside, there were a couple of minis that were perfect; usually because they were more "solid". The yeti figure is just awesome, and the huges are great as well. It seems that the bigger the figure, the less chance of it being broken or badly warped.