Big, Strong, and Dumb

Steely_Dan · Sep 8, 2012

triqui said:
A thirty foot tall giant couldn't even stand on his feet, due to the Square Cube Law. In a fantasy world, this do not apply. Also, Hercules, or Cu Chulain, arestronger than both the Troll and the Giant, and they are 6'

That said, in real world, Naim Suleymanonglu, who is 4'10'', can lift more weight than Manute Bol, who was 7'7''. That's so, becouse strength is a function of the section of the muscle (and the density of the fibers, it's power, and other things related to neuromuscular use of fibers) , not it's length. A longer arm isn't stronger than a shorter arm.

And when the fibres are connected on the outside (*said like H.I. in Raising Arizona*), you get fleas jumping football fields, as we all know.

Ichneumon · Sep 8, 2012

Steely_Dan said:
And when the fibres are connected on the outside (*said like H.I. in Raising Arizona*), you get fleas jumping football fields, as we all know.

That's why, despite sitting on the opposite side of the football field, I still itch.

Olgar Shiverstone · Sep 8, 2012

Ogres and giants need to be stronger.

I suspect a significant number of 1st level PC fighters will have 18 strength ... kind of hard to be intimidated by an ogre when you can beat him arm-wrestling.

pemerton · Sep 8, 2012

Steely_Dan said:
was Vaprak mentioned in 3rd and/or 4th Ed?

I don''t know about 3E. In 4e he is discussed (and statted up) in The Plane Above - he is presented as an Exarch of Gruumsh. I would say he is proportionately weaker than in DDG - 25th level Elite Skirmisher. Also, he is Vaprak the Rapacious rather than Vaprak the Destroyer, and is expressly identified as a troll and object of troll veneration - not ogres.

pemerton · Sep 8, 2012

Double post.

pemerton · Sep 8, 2012

Triple post.

Ultimatecalibur · Sep 8, 2012

Victim said:
Okay, fine. And magic is a bit of knowledge and a lot of scam. An ogre is brutish guy you don't like. And a giant is a person with a gland disorder. A dragon is a bigger than normal snake or lizard. Etc.

It seems really strange to use an extremely stripped down version of a myth when other mythic stuff is thrown into the game at full power - or with the combined powers of many legends and stories. I mean, the starting point for the thread is a discussion of ogres and giants. How can you reconcile the mundane explanation for what the fighter guy does with actual oversized monsters and magic?

Did you know that, in some versions of Aurthurian Myth, the various Knights of the Round Table were often as strong as (or often in Lancelot's case stronger than) the giants they fought and often won because of their superior skill at arms.

Thor regularly wrestled giants (an won) without Megingjörð(power-belt that doubles his strength) even though he was shorter than they (being only half-giant).

I have no problem with strong "mortals" besting the average ogres and giants at feats of strength because I know of all sorts of stories(new and old) where this happens.

Steely_Dan said:
I've been applying Strength checks/Skills incorrectly?

I know, I know...

But, this brings up an interesting point (well, to me...), as, as has been discussed, a demigod campaign transcends levels, Herakles/Hercules wasn't trained, he was just born with a giant bonus score because he's the offspring of an affair with a Goddess.

I think D&D can handle both.

That's my point: much of it comes down to presentation and perspective. Early on in 4E's life, an employee talked about the campaign he was in where they PCs were Divine Beings/Planetary Avatars from level 1 with no changes to the rules. The DM was just describing things happening on a different scale than normal.

P.S.:Achilles was traditionally the one that is a child of a goddess(Thetis); Herakles was traditionally a child of Zeus.

Iosue · Sep 9, 2012

triqui said:
500lb isn't too much for maximum human deadlift. Actually, it's low for *maximum human*. Like *half* maximum human.

300lb is close tor what a strong human could press overhead.

I think you misread my post. I didn't say 500 lb was too much for maximum human deadlift. I said it seemed high for average human deadlift. I already noted in my post that in the playtest the maximum human deadlift was 1,000 lbs, and I also made note of Magnusson's record in that regard.

I'm just saying I don't think average folks, even those who lived in medieval times, could generally deadlift 500 lbs.

Olgar Shiverstone said:
Ogres and giants need to be stronger.

I suspect a significant number of 1st level PC fighters will have 18 strength ... kind of hard to be intimidated by an ogre when you can beat him arm-wrestling.

As I clearly demonstrated in my post, Ogres and Giants are far stronger than even the strongest human possible. Currently as the rules stand, arm wrestling is a Strength contest, and there are no rules as yet written for what effects an increase in Creature Size might have for STR bonuses. One possibility is that the bonuses double, just as carrying capacity does. In that case, a 20 STR human would have a +5 and an 18 STR ogre would have +8, which strikes me as feasible. A large giant with 20 STR would have a bonus of +10. A Huge Storm Giant with a 25 STR would have a plus +32, meaning the fighter would never have a chance of winning. That all sounds feasible. The question is not really one of making the creatures stronger, but of fleshing out the Size rules.

GreyICE · Sep 9, 2012

Iosue said:
I think you misread my post. I didn't say 500 lb was too much for maximum human deadlift. I said it seemed high for average human deadlift. I already noted in my post that in the playtest the maximum human deadlift was 1,000 lbs, and I also made note of Magnusson's record in that regard.

I'm just saying I don't think average folks, even those who lived in medieval times, could generally deadlift 500 lbs.

Yeah, but exponential growth in weight/Strength ratios resulted in the chart being impossible to remember without, y'know, actually flipping open the book, browsing around in the index, and finding a stupid chart, a process that breaks my immersion and takes on the near side of forever (why does no one ever mention the immersion breaking that occurs when endless table lookups happen?).

It also resulted in the Hulking Hurler nonsense, and maybe 13th level characters shouldn't be able to shatter the planetary crust and annihilate the moon.

50 kilos (100 lbs) / 2 points deadlifted is simple enough to remember, and generally works. Besides this isn't medieval roleplay, it's heroic fantasy.

Iosue · Sep 9, 2012

GreyICE said:
Yeah, but exponential growth in weight/Strength ratios resulted in the chart being impossible to remember without, y'know, actually flipping open the book, browsing around in the index, and finding a stupid chart, a process that breaks my immersion and takes on the near side of forever (why does no one ever mention the immersion breaking that occurs when endless table lookups happen?).

It also resulted in the Hulking Hurler nonsense, and maybe 13th level characters shouldn't be able to shatter the planetary crust and annihilate the moon.

50 kilos (100 lbs) / 2 points deadlifted is simple enough to remember, and generally works. Besides this isn't medieval roleplay, it's heroic fantasy.

Um, I'm not sure what you're saying here, or if you meant to quote me. I'm not talking about exponential growth or tables. I'm talking about STR in 5e, which has neither. The rules are quite simple: STR x 10 = carrying capacity. Carrying capacity x 5 = max deadlift/push/pull strength. Double these results by a factor of 2 for each Size class above Medium. No look up needed.