Mike Mearls: A Paladin, Ranger, and Wizard With Arcane Tradition Walk Into A Tavern

After Gen Con and the release of the second Open Playtest packet, I had a third opportunity since December to ask Mike Mearls, Lead Designer of D&D Next some more questions. I want to thank him for taking the time to answer with such detail, and I want to thank Wizards of the Coast for being so gracious as to extend me the opportunity again. Thanks also to the readers of my D&D coverage for submitting your questions and opinions. I hope you enjoy and can't wait to read your comments.

I am a D&D fan of all editions and can see elements of each in the Open Playtest material as well as a lot of new ideas, such as advantage/disadvantage. The feedback that you have received from the playtest so far does it suggest that the fans feel that any edition isn’t represented equally? Are you receiving feedback from fans of one particular edition more than the others?

We’ve received feedback from fans of every edition. A lot of people are playing 4E, but many others are playing with the rest of the editions. Interestingly, we’re finding that there are several people in the playtest who have played, or are currently play, more than one edition.
We’re really seeing a broad, diverse group of playtesters. Through surveys, we’ve asked the playtesters what edition D&D Next feels the most like, and the answers were all over the map. The most common answer was 3rd edition, though, coming in at about 30%. I think a lot of that comes down to the core mechanic, which first appeared with 3E.


We’re really not seeing too many edition-based trends in the feedback we’ve recieved. It’s actually somewhat of a relief to see that D&D players, as a whole, have fairly similar desires for the game. Although we have playtesters who play all the different editions, they’re really not asking for radically different things. In fact, based on where things stand now, it looks like hit points and healing are the biggest points of contention. I suspect it all comes down to play styles and what kind of fantasy (heroic vs. gritty) players want out of D&D.


You have said previously in our conversations and elsewhere that you would complete one class before moving on to another class of the same type. I believe the example was not working on paladin or ranger until fighter is complete. Does the release of the warlock and sorcerer class in the new playtest material mean that the wizard is complete?

The wizard is actually due for a major update. We’re planning on adding the concept of an arcane tradition to the class. A tradition reflects how you studied magic and what kind of magic you are skilled in wielding. For instance, you might pick evocation magic as your tradition, making you an invoker. This grants you some bonus weapon and armor proficiencies, plus it gives you a list of invocation school spells that are your tradition’s signature spells. When you cast such a spell, you retain a shard of its magic. Five minutes later, you regain the ability to cast that spell. You don’t need to rest or anything to get the spell back. You studies and techniques allow you to prepare the spell in such a way that you regain its power.


It’s kind of funny, because we thought the wizard was done until we did the sorcerer and warlock. We learned some stuff from those classes and from the surveys that led us to flesh out school specialization into the idea of traditions.

In editions previous to 4th one of the often heard complaints was that the spellcasters, primarily the wizard was more powerful, useful, and fun to play than the other classes, especially at higher levels. Did you use the wizard as a sort of baseline for establishing what the other classes needed to equal up to, instead of reducing it to make the other classes feel more relevant?

It’s a little bit of a combination of the two. Some spells need to be reigned in, specifically utility spells that are too good for their level, spells that are really powerful when used in combination with other spells, and the ease of stocking up on magic items and spell slots to make those combinations possible.


On the other end, there are some simple things we can do, like making sure that an invisible character isn’t as stealthy as a rogue without invisibility. The non-magical classes often rely on bonuses to die rolls rather than the sure things that magic can provide. The rogue in the playtest packet, as an example, is guaranteed a minimum result of 10 on die rolls with trained skills. So, we’re also finding ways to add depth and power to the non-caster classes.

This next question is kind of like part two of the previous question. The fighter Combat Superiority and Fighting Style allow the fighter a lot of utility and options as they advance in level as a class ability. Was this by design to balance the fighter with the wizard and cleric since they just receives spells as they advance in level?

Not really. It was much more answering the desire we saw from players for more round-by-round options for the fighter. The nice thing about expertise dice is that the complexity is in the players hands. We can design a range of options, from a straight forward, knock them over the head fighter, to a fighter who uses more cunning, parries, ripostes, and intricate tactics, to overcome an opponent.

The warlock has the ability to cast a limited number of spells as rituals. In previous editions both paladins and rangers had the ability to use a limited amount of spells at higher levels. Would something like this be considered when designing those classes or perhaps other classes or perhaps be left up to a specialty instead?

Both the ranger and paladin will quite likely end up with spells. Neither class is far along in design, but it’s possible we might amp up the spells a little to make the classes more distinct from the fighter.

You mentioned in Legends & Lore that you’ve never been crazy about sneak attack as the rogue’s defining combat ability. I couldn’t agree more. If you were not going to use sneak attack what mechanic or option would you think could replace it and still make the rogue feel effective in combat, especially to players who have had only 4th Edition exposure to the class and the game? In a perfect world of course.

I think sneak attack is great as an option, but I also want to make archer rogues, rogues who use trickery and tactics to outfox opponents, rogues who are really good at dodging and frustrating enemies, stuff like that, all become possible. The one thing that I dislike about sneak attack is that it turns all rogues into assassins, or at least gets them to act like that during a fight. I think that when you look at rogues from AD&D, and from fiction, they aren’t all skirmishers or backstabbers.


From a design standpoint, it’s actually not hard at all to make that change. We just need to create options that are as strong as sneak attack and let people pick which ones they want.

This second Open Playtest packet brings specific sub-races back to Dungeons & Dragons such as the lightfoot halfling and wood elf. This is great to give players more options to choose from but is the plan to still include all the races that were included in the Player’s Handbook at the beginning of each edition? If so will we see sub-races for tiefling and dragonborn?

We may include the races from the Player’s Handbook(s). I’d like to tie dragonborn into our lore of dragons, Tiamat, Bahamut and such, and I think that I’d also like to bring tieflings back closer to their origins in Planescape and tie them to several possible planes, rather than just the Nine Hells.

The traits that are provided by Backgrounds definitely appeared geared at supporting the other two pillars, exploration and role-playing. For example the Thief’s Thief Signs is role-playing and the Sage trait Researcher is exploration and role-playing. Looking past 5th level, could we possibly see a paragon path or prestige style option to build upon the idea presented in backgrounds and further expands what the characters can do to affect the exploration and role-playing pillars?

One of the things I’d like to explore is adding some options to the skill system to allow players to add more stuff to their character based on their background. Another idea I’d like to explore, especially as we develop material for settings, is to find ways to tie prestige classes and backgrounds together. For instance, maybe the Knight of the Rose prestige class requires the squire background or a special boon granted by the Grandmaster of the knights, along with the completion of certain tasks and such. I like the idea of fusing in-game actions into prestige classes to make them something you earn via your actions, rather than just something with mechanical prerequisites.

Are there any plans to include a paragon or prestige classes to further allow for customization of characters or is the idea just to continue to have specialties grant characters further powers and abilities as the gain levels?

Yes. I want us to explore and hopefully succeed in designing prestige classes as part of the game.

Do you have any plans to include multi-classing and how would that affect specialties?

Yes, we 100% plan to include multiclassing. Some specialties give you a light touch of another class, but the full system allows you to integrate multiple classes. I see this as simply another area where players can choose how deep they want to go into a class or archetype.

The spell descriptions have changed from the statistics and text presentation in the first Open Playtest packet and are radically different than the nearly pure formula presentation of 4e. I think that the pure text description that you are currently using allows for a lot of creativity in spell casting. Was this change by design and if so what were the reasons for the change in presentation?

It was 100% by design, and the intention is to open up spellcasting to more creative options. If we do it right, each spell has two parts. The first portion describes what’s happening in the world, and the second half has the pure mechanics. At some point, as we finish things up, we’ll have to give DMs guidance on how much they want to blend those two things. Some DMs might want 100% mechanics, with no creative casting. For other groups and DMs, driving the action with the story material and flavor is what makes the game interesting. Hopefully, the game sets things up so both groups can apply their approach to spells as they see fit.

In the Character Creation document in the Character Advancement section the text reads, “The Character Advancement table summarizes character advancement through the first 10 levels, not taking class into account. The chart lists feats at 1st and 3rd level and if we don’t take class into account where will the feats mentioned come from? Are you looking at including feats that are selected separately from backgrounds?

Those feats come from your specialty. When you choose a specialty, you basically get a pre-selected list of feats. However, you can mix and match feats as you wish. Some feats have prerequisites that you need to meet, but otherwise you can select them freely.

The idea, though, is to get players to think of that more like building their own, character-specific specialty that has a place in the world. You might pick options based solely on utility or power, but if we do our job right you can look at the specialties tied to those feats and fairly easily create a concept for how those feats fit together to say something about your character as a person.
 
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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Klaus said:
Then stick to the generalist wizard. AFAIK, the "encounter" spell slots are for school specialists only, as a way of mimicking the old "additional spell slot for specialty school".

Is there something wrong about wanting to be an Illusionist without "encounter" powers? Is there something integral to the concept of "Evoker" that means that you're fartin' out fireballs every five minutes? Is there a gameplay or psychological itch that must be scratched by a Transmuter who can cast Enlarge without worrying about never NOT being able to cast it?

There's a place for encounter magic and a place for at-will magic and also a place for magic that can run out. So far, 5e has at-will magic and the promise of encounter magic (not to mention the Warlock and the Sorcerer who, IMO, should both be a lot less Vancian than they are now!), but they aren't giving much so far to those that want magic that can't be done all day long. It's a valid choice, it deserves to be supported, and so far WotC isn't giving that support.

It's still a little early in the process, but I keep hearing about spellcasters who can't waggle their fingers in a crowded room without doing something magical. I don't hear much about those who must ration their power carefully. Those spellcasters who aren't surrounded with little popping lights and rainbow colors and floating mugs and little sparkles all the time, who instead quietly bide their time, knowing their power is finite and limited, but immensely powerful. I'm getting a lot of "Magic is as easy as turning on a faucet!" and not a lot of "Knowing a spell is like sitting on a bomb. One bomb. when it goes off, if there's anyone left...you ain't got a bomb anymore. But everyone knows you're the dude who tried to blow everyone up."

I absolutely think there must be plenty of options for those who want constant magical power at their disposal. I also think that there should be a few options for those who don't.

Between people who can't stand at-will/encounter spellcasting and people who think it's the best thing since neckbeards and wouldn't play without it, it's sounding more and more to me that this is less an issue of specific classes, and more and more an issue of an underlying idea of what magic is in your game.

For some folks, knowing magic makes you sparkle all the always, and they wouldn't want to play any other way.

For other folks, knowing magic means you are a paper tiger, and they wouldn't want to play any other way, either.

Wizards, Warlocks, Sorcerers, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Whatever...it seems like this underpins something more fundamental than class choice. Academic wizards need to be able to have replenishing magic as much as pact-sworn dark wizards need to be able to be Big Daily Booms.
 

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mearls

Hero
FWIW, the tradition approach makes it very easy for us to mix different spell casting mechanics into one class. So, you can imagine one tradition gives only dailies, and another gives signature spells unique to it that you can regain, and so on. Those differences can also extend to at-will magic.

In building your campaign, you can then decide which traditions exist in your setting. I was originally tempted to use war mage instead of invoker in the interview, and to me figuring out where to us such names is a big question.
 

Cybit

First Post
FWIW, the tradition approach makes it very easy for us to mix different spell casting mechanics into one class. So, you can imagine one tradition gives only dailies, and another gives signature spells unique to it that you can regain, and so on. Those differences can also extend to at-will magic.

In building your campaign, you can then decide which traditions exist in your setting. I was originally tempted to use war mage instead of invoker in the interview, and to me figuring out where to us such names is a big question.

I think one of the things that I took away from the multiple PAX panels was that the optionality / modularity is inside of everything, but I don't think that has been really communicated in examples to most folks yet.

I think the hardest sell might be for people to understand the paradigm shift of "this is the design philosophy Wizards is putting on an edition of D&D, be it more simulation based or more game based" to "We don't want to be the arbiters of that choice, we want the gaming group to make whatever choice is best for them, and give them options to do either".
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
mearls said:
FWIW, the tradition approach makes it very easy for us to mix different spell casting mechanics into one class. So, you can imagine one tradition gives only dailies, and another gives signature spells unique to it that you can regain, and so on. Those differences can also extend to at-will magic.

In building your campaign, you can then decide which traditions exist in your setting. I was originally tempted to use war mage instead of invoker in the interview, and to me figuring out where to us such names is a big question.

Sounds cool (and thanks for popping in!).

My only concern with this is that there's a chance that it fosters some "One True Way" thinking. If you dudes make an Illusionist who uses daily magic, then there's a bit of a risk of someone who wants to play an Illusionist because they like the concept being saddled with a magic system that they aren't a fan of. Same with an Pyromancer who recharges, or a Blood Mage who uses at-wills.

It's like the idea that all archers must be Rangers, or that all nature-worshipers must be Druids. That there's One Right Answer for someone who wants a particular archetype, and that if they don't like that mechanics the game provides for that archetype, aww, tough luck, Sally. If there's one way to be a War Wizard, and I don't like the way you did it, does that then mean that to play that archetype in my own way, I'm re-designing a whole THING? Or do I have other options for getting to that archetype that don't depend on the same mechanical tricks?

This is part of why I think you guys are on the right track emphasizing the story information up front. "Illusionist" is a little undefined. If you get a handle on what different kinds of illusionists there could be (from a specialist academic wizard to a bard's bag of tricks to a gnome who might otherwise be a fighter to a rogue who dabbles in legerdemain to a ninja or assassin who uses deception and misdirection as a spy and murderer to....), you can get mechanics that support THAT SPECIFIC KIND of trickster, without having it be The One For Everyone. Forex, your stealthy ninja probably wouldn't cast a traditional D&D spell (what with the verbal and somatic components and him hanging upside down on a wall and tryin' to be sneaky and all), and your gnome might not (taking hits in melee shouldn't prevent his trickery!), but your academic Illusionist probably would (he's a slight twist on the academic archetype of a Wizard).

Personally, this dates back to 4e for me. I think one of the awesome things about stuff like 4e's Vampire Rainbow was that it allowed you to do the same thing in multiple different ways. Dabble in feats, take a race, go for the class, whatever!

But ultimately I guess this just means you guys have a real challenge ahead of you with how you name things. :p Good luck (and let me know if you want any help. ;)).
 

Cybit

First Post
The "One True Way" is going to be the biggest hurdle for 5E, IMO. So many RPG players not only want their "way" supported, but also don't want "any other way" supported, either. Based on what I've heard and seen, it seems they want a very basic archetype, and then multiple ways to branch off, both mechanically and story wise, from that archetype.

The more I think about 5E, the more I wonder whether we're (RPG fans) going to be the biggest problem. :-/
 


BobTheNob

First Post
Personally Im not a fan of encounter spells, for many reason (some already stated here).

I dont mind what the have proposed for the evoker (and other traditions Im assuming) but would simply prefer that you didnt get these spells back on a 1:1 basis. Maybe that you have a random chance of recovering a spell, or you can get back X levels worth of spells for every Y levels you spent. Something a bit more middle of the road like that.
 

The Choice

First Post
My problem with encounter spells is that I've found them to be the single biggest destroyer of old-school playstyles. If PCs have powers that recharge between fights, especially if ALL the PCs have them, then random encounters and wandering monsters can quickly change from a resource-draining challenge to be avoided into an easy way to grind XP, since encounter powers (at least in 4e) are powerful enough to make any minor combat pretty easy. I'm definitely concerned about them being brought back.

I don't feel that wizards (or any spellcaster/character in general) possessing one or two abilities that can be called upon again within a shorter timeframe will alter playstyle dramatically as long as the power of such abilities falls within a certain spectrum. It couldn't be as "encounter defining" as say Sleep or Hold Person, but what about Burning Hands? It's a spell that just puts a bit of damage down; it won't be the turning point of a combat, so PCs can't just rely on that one spell to win the encounter, and it can become sort of a signature spell for the wizard who chooses it.

It can also be a positive incentive for PCs to go on and "explore just one more room" when normally they'd be packing up their gear and leaving the dungeon because they're "out of juice".

As for the "random encounter" thing, it could be a net positive in that it gives players a clearer grasp of what they can still accomplish. "That's two ogres right around the corner." "We had trouble taking one down at full strength, I don't think we can pull this off with just my cantrips and burning hands. Let's find a way around them." By adding a point of granularity in resource management, it helps PCs and DMs gauge what kind of encounters will be challenging or out and out deadly.
 
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Chris_Nightwing

First Post
... and another thing! Don't mix strongly different mechanics within the same class! That's confusing, wasteful of design space other classes could be using and the class loses its distinctive identity.
 

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