D&D 5E Why the HP Threshold on Spells is a Bad Idea

JamesonCourage · Sep 26, 2012

GreyICE said:
The problem with trying to nail down how much hit points are meat is that its not dependent on the players. Or the setting. It's dependent on the enemies.

Take a 20' tall steel golem. There's no sane or sensible way a humanoid with roughly human physiology survives a direct blow from a fist. Each fist weighs on the order of 2,000 lbs to 10,000 lbs (depending on exact scaling). I've seen empty steel frames that weighed 800 lbs.

That hits you dead on, you be dead son.

Check out what happens to Boromir at around 33 seconds in. Or to Strider at around 2:07.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpssk85XTQQ]Cave Troll scene - YouTube[/ame]

Blam. Hit. And most people are okay with this. There's a lot of people advocating for cinematic combat. That's not one of my primary goals, but I get it. But, it's fantasy. I can see a glancing blow by a giant in fantasy. And most people can watch the cave troll scene and not get yanked out of their shallow immersion. Some do get yanked out, of course.

At any rate, the HP thing is just preference. It doesn't work for you. It obviously works for other people. I really think beating the "it doesn't work" drum will only resonate with half (or whatever) the people here, but it probably won't change any minds. Why? Because people have different expectations. Just the way that works. As always, play what you like

GreyICE · Sep 26, 2012

Bluenose said:
Funnily, that "part of your arm goes numb" and "twinge in your back" require a lot more healing than the nearly fatal blow that you took from an orc when you were a lot less experienced. You'd think it would be the other way around.

A nearly fatal blow would require at least 3 surges to heal, probably more than the leader can let you use. A twinge in your back requires 1. So, nah.

Plane Sailing · Sep 26, 2012

the Jester said:
Imma let you finish, but let me just interrupt for one second here- how would you feel if the mechanic remained but was linked to CURRENT hit points instead of maximum?

It's funny - I think I automatically read it as CURRENT hit points, and quite liked the mechanic - the spells become good finishers rather than good openers.

I hope it stays in like that!

BobTheNob · Sep 27, 2012

Plane Sailing said:
It's funny - I think I automatically read it as CURRENT hit points, and quite liked the mechanic - the spells become good finishers rather than good openers.

I hope it stays in like that!

I always thought it was current too (me bad read not too good).

My position is one of agreeing with you. I like that spells are finishers rather than openers too. Fantastic Goal.

I just dont like that Hit points are the mechanism they measure this with. I just havent heard a good argument (by good, I will qualify this to mean one good enough to convince me) for why fighters with high constitutions have *broad specturm* spell/whatever resistance, where a rogue with low constitution doesn't. This aspect just does not work for me.

So, Stop "end of fight in round one nova spells and abilities" = YAY!!! Good, couldnt agree more.

Using HP to achieve it? Not for me.

Greg K · Sep 27, 2012

I just completed my feedback for the latest survey. Every spell with a hit point threshsold received a negative rating

timASW · Sep 27, 2012

BobTheNob said:
I

I just dont like that Hit points are the mechanism they measure this with. I just havent heard a good argument (by good, I will qualify this to mean one good enough to convince me) for why fighters with high constitutions have *broad specturm* spell/whatever resistance, where a rogue with low constitution doesn't.

Too help the perception of fighters average sucktitude?

If their actually immune, or nearly so to most of those save or suck spells they suddenly become a hell of a good mage basher. Especially with the right weapons.

Ahnehnois · Sep 27, 2012

[MENTION=5038]Greg K[/MENTION]
I did the same thing. Let's be clear with WotC about this.

BobTheNob · Sep 27, 2012

timASW said:
Too help the perception of fighters average sucktitude?

If their actually immune, or nearly so to most of those save or suck spells they suddenly become a hell of a good mage basher. Especially with the right weapons.

Is that what fighters are? Mage bashers?

Did we, in order to complete the definition of what a fighter should be, need to (via inadvertent rulings) increase his ability to resist spells?

If I wanted a mage-basher fighter, I would use specialisation/feats to emulate that, not a side effect of a quirky HP rule.

My understanding of Hit Points was always an abstraction of damage which indicated ones ability to mitigate a dire blow to a mere scratch, hence why fighter has the lions share...it reflects there training. Yet now the ability to mitigate a dire blow to a mere scratch is also the ability to ignore certain spells (even non damage based ones).

The whole thing just doesnt wash with me. I know there are counter arguments to this, I have heard em all, but the arguments, and the idea itself, has simply failed to impress me.

I re-iterate something I posted earlier. I am not alone in this, alot of people agree with me, as do alot disagree with me. But surely, given the amount of objection that is out there, cant WOTC consider some alternatives?

bbjore · Sep 27, 2012

BobTheNob said:
Is that what fighters are? Mage bashers?

My understanding of Hit Points was always an abstraction of damage which indicated ones ability to mitigate a dire blow to a mere scratch, hence why fighter has the lions share...it reflects there training. Yet now the ability to mitigate a dire blow to a mere scratch is also the ability to ignore certain spells (even non damage based ones).

I think that's why a current HP threshold might be good for certain spells, but only certain ones. The game has a well established way to model the fact that certain targets are more resilient than other targets (more hp). If resilience is an important factor for how likely a spell should effect a target, than a hp threshold is a good idea. Because you can weaken or beat down that resilience. I do agree that it's probably best used on spells that would likely require a fortitude save rather than a will save. But it has the benefit of factoring how tired or injured a target that a straight Fort save doesn't.

On an aside, in one of the earlier books (man I wish I could remember which but it's been over a decade), a fighter's good saves were described in part by shear defiance. I always liked that. The wizard might be able to alter the reality, but it was assumed high level martial characters (specifically fighters) had the ability to say "not my part" to some extent. Probably not everyone's cup of tea, but I do think the game could benefit to bringing back a little more of that flavor.

Ratskinner · Sep 27, 2012

billd91 said:
Funnily, the game system takes care of a lot of that by substantially increasing your healing rate as you level.

I do not consider the cognitive dissonances caused by pre-4th edition healing magic to be "taking care of it." Its just that we're so used to it that we don't balk at them.

So, Frank the Fighter and Charlie the Cleric have just gotten through a scrape with a dragon which left Frank with 20 of his 60 hp. Thankfully, Charlie has just cast a healing spell on him:

Frank: Hey Charlie, that was pretty good. What spell was that?
Charlie: Cure Critical Wounds.
Frank: !....A bit of overkill if you ask me, I was only dinged up a bit.
Charlie: uh, yeah, Frank, but...like...you're pretty heroic. You had sustained wounds that would've killed a normal man.
Frank: erm...I am a normal man, Charlie. I'm just a normal man who has learned how to keep his shield up... Waitaminit! You remember when we had just started out and that orc chieftain KO'd me. Everybody thought I was a goner?
Charlie: Yeah...
Frank: You brought me back fit-as-a-fiddle then, too. What spell'd you use for that?
Charlie: umm...well...Cure Light Wounds. It was all I could...
Frank: How in Hades does that make any sense!? I'm knocking on Valhalla's door and you cast Cure Light Wounds, but today I'm a little scratched up with a twisted ankle and you come up with Cure Critical Wounds?
Charlie: uh...its magic?
Frank: Wut?
Charlie: Its magic.

I'll grant you, this can be fixed quite easily with some renaming, or reworking of the spell functions, but still.