That is in Gygax's DMG.
D&D 5E Why the HP Threshold on Spells is a Bad Idea
- Thread starter Falling Icicle
- Start date
so far all this objection seems to be constrained to a handful of posters on 1 thread on 1 website who didnt seem to keen on 5e anyway.
I really hope they dont let nitpicking by a vocal? (maybe) minority change important rules like this.
No matter how you handle save or suck spells someone is gonna be unhappy with it. This particular version seems to have the LEAST amount of complaints in 2 editions so far.
Lets stick with it and give it a chance.
How about good saving throws, in the AD&D/BD&D sense rather than the much weaker 3e sense? That's where the idea that Fighters should be good at resisting spells comes from; it's part of D&D. Maybe there should be a module for the people who want spells to be harder to resist, as well as the default one that gives the traditional, old-school, version.
frankthedm
First Post
There is no rule stating low level foes stop showing up when the players get to high level. They won't be much of a threat but they should still BE there, working in large groups. This is one of the reasons WHY 1st level monster HP are so low, unlike 4E where throwing four 1st level kobolds added almost, if not more than 100HP! onto the adversaries side.
Spend a little time going back over the previous threads of this forum. This has come up plenty of times, So no, it isnt "one" thread.
And the "its a handful of posters", we must be perceiving this differently, cause its coming across to me as more than a "handful"
Count em up. Probably less a dozen.
Subtract everyone without a better idea to offer and your probably down to 1 or 2.
Besides, the point is that every possible method is going to piss someone off (probably a lot of someones) so they need to just bite the bullet and pick one. This one is as good as any others that have been proposed on the whole so why mess with it?
Sadras
Legend
I have changed my mind re using hit points as a measuring mechanic. My suggestion is it affects 1d4+Ability Modifier Level/HD worth of creatures within a specified area.
This spell should never be based on Hit Points as it is a terrible idea* but rather it competes against skill, experience and size of the opponent as it always has. Which means as the adventurers rise in levels they are better equipped to shake off these supernatural drowsy effects through willpower and sheer determination. That’s not saying a commoner cannot also have a strong enough willpower, hence the required use of a saving throw.
Now the trick is to make the spell useful at higher levels. Firstly the spell needs to have an effect for those that make their saving throws and/or those above the Level/HD range, so perhaps they lose a move action (shaking their heads to negate the drowsiness, or compulsively yawning therefore being unable to cast verbal spells or speak their following round).
If the sleep spell is learned at higher level slots (modular rules), the effects for successful saves could become worse due to the increased potency of the spell (higher level spell slot). Presented here just as an option. Perhaps the increased potency only affects a greater Level/HD worth of creatures (1d4 per Level) or the Range or the Sleep Area grows – whatever. It all depends if we are going the route of the Quadratic Wizard or using spell at higher slots.
*Besides all the negatives of using a hit point measuring mechanic mentioned by previous posters, it also allows for: Casters are going to wait for the opponent to be really low on hit points and then exploit it to make them fall asleep and interrogate or torture them afterwards. As a DM I don’t want that option being on the table every time.
Other effects on the sleep spell to curtail it that I have seen on the net.
- It works on Friends and Foe alike.
- Paralyzes opponents with weapons in hand, awoken if touched or the spell gets interrupted if anyone wakes up.
- Perhaps getting too close to a ‘frozen’ person, the magical sleep seeps onto them (saving throw required, every round as long as they are near a 'frozen' person).
This spell should never be based on Hit Points as it is a terrible idea* but rather it competes against skill, experience and size of the opponent as it always has. Which means as the adventurers rise in levels they are better equipped to shake off these supernatural drowsy effects through willpower and sheer determination. That’s not saying a commoner cannot also have a strong enough willpower, hence the required use of a saving throw.
Now the trick is to make the spell useful at higher levels. Firstly the spell needs to have an effect for those that make their saving throws and/or those above the Level/HD range, so perhaps they lose a move action (shaking their heads to negate the drowsiness, or compulsively yawning therefore being unable to cast verbal spells or speak their following round).
If the sleep spell is learned at higher level slots (modular rules), the effects for successful saves could become worse due to the increased potency of the spell (higher level spell slot). Presented here just as an option. Perhaps the increased potency only affects a greater Level/HD worth of creatures (1d4 per Level) or the Range or the Sleep Area grows – whatever. It all depends if we are going the route of the Quadratic Wizard or using spell at higher slots.
*Besides all the negatives of using a hit point measuring mechanic mentioned by previous posters, it also allows for: Casters are going to wait for the opponent to be really low on hit points and then exploit it to make them fall asleep and interrogate or torture them afterwards. As a DM I don’t want that option being on the table every time.
Other effects on the sleep spell to curtail it that I have seen on the net.
- It works on Friends and Foe alike.
- Paralyzes opponents with weapons in hand, awoken if touched or the spell gets interrupted if anyone wakes up.
- Perhaps getting too close to a ‘frozen’ person, the magical sleep seeps onto them (saving throw required, every round as long as they are near a 'frozen' person).
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Ridley's Cohort
First Post
I applaud the idea of customizing, but not starting with the pieces assembled into a working car is really darn hard on non-experts in gaming. How about we just call our working example car "Core"? Would that be okay?
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
It is primarily a question of pacing.
3e made a conscious choice to make each "action" (round) more significant by means of cranking up the offensive potential of all classes.
For Fighters, that meant criticals, "double-specialization", power attack, Animal buffs, useful weapon options, etc. baked into Core -- it takes only a little optimization and above average luck to kill a significant foe in 1-1/2 rounds. For Wizards, that meant most spells, if applied astutely (i.e. I attack the weak save), should be fairly reliable. In the splat books, we also saw more and more useful swift effects.
In 1e/2e, a lot of interesting spells like Suggestion and Polymorph were 80+% likely to fail against every non-mook, before even considering possible SR. That is not right or wrong, but it could be an obstacle to fun IMO. Regardless, it does imply an upper limit on the offensive potential of the tanks. If the Wizard needs 4 or 5 tries to turn someone into a frog (expending a precious high level slot with each attempt), then it should take 5 or 6 rounds for a tank to beat someone to death.
Neither route is right or wrong, but unless we could formulate an entirely novel way of thinking about saves, we are more or less stuck with those paths. (4e played around with different mechanics, but ultimately it seemed more "just different" than notably better.)
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