D&D 5E There are zero incarnations of swarm rules that I don't hate.

pemerton · Sep 27, 2012

FireLance said:
That said, half damage from melee and ranged attacks can make swarm fights really grindy for a party with only a few close and area attacks.

Agreed. My party has 3 AoE combatants (invoker, sorcerer, fighter) and 2 single target combatants (ranger, paladin) though even the latter two have a bit of AoE (the paladin has some bursts and blasts, the ranger is hybrid cleric).

A different party mix would certainly change how swarms play.

FireLance said:
The party was under-strength and had mostly melee and ranged attacks, so I replaced one of the swarms with an equal-level spider and dropped the other completely.

<snip>

I think it speaks to the strength of the 4e system that I was able to estimate the likely difficulty of the fight for the PCs so accurately and make on the fly adjustments so easily and seamlessly.

Agree with this too.

pemerton · Sep 27, 2012

Wednesday Boy said:
it would be interesting if each square of swarming creatures can move independently of the others. So instead of a large swarm filling a 2x2 square area, you would use four 1x1 areas that move wherever they want but are more deadly if they are adjacent to each other.

I gather from the online SRD that 3.5 swarms are partly like this - they must remain contiguous, but can move their squares around rather than staying in a square.

Wednesday Boy said:
The GM could have the swarm actually envelop a character.

In 4e, a swarm can envelop a PC by entering his/her square. In your proposal, are you envisage 4 swarms surrounding the PC on the non-diagonal squares?

Wednesday Boy · Sep 27, 2012

pemerton said:
I gather from the online SRD that 3.5 swarms are partly like this - they must remain contiguous, but can move their squares around rather than staying in a square.

Hey, you're right! I don't remember us using swarms in that way. Although it has been a while since we played 3.x and I have a goldfish's memory.

pemerton said:
In 4e, a swarm can envelop a PC by entering his/her square. In your proposal, are you envisage 4 swarms surrounding the PC on the non-diagonal squares?

I was imagining a swarm that was bigger than 4 squares filling in the squares around a PC. But that sort of enveloping could work in conjuction with the swarm entering the PC's square.

Maybe it would work in 4E to have it behave like a moveable Wall that could be entered or that could enter a PC's square and it would deal some sort of fallout from sharing the space with the PC.

Dausuul · Sep 27, 2012

As I said above, I would like to see swarms re-envisioned as an environmental hazard rather than a monster. Some thoughts on how to make it work:

Swarms don't have hit points. A swarm either occupies a square, or doesn't. If it does, AoE damage over a certain threshold will clear it out of that square.
Weapons and other single-target attacks don't affect a swarm.
Anyone can make a "slam attack," which is a Strength-based attack to clear out a swarm from a given square--you stomp and flail around to squash as many vermin as you can. (It's Strength-based because Strength is the ability score most likely to correlate with physical bulk. Also to make fighters effective.)
An attacking swarm square doesn't move into your square--it moves onto you! You are now the swarm's square, and it goes wherever you go, eating your face all the while. Slam attacks can damage the swarm without hurting you.
It is impossible to concentrate on spellcasting with a swarm on you.

The last point is important because it gives wizards a reason to fear swarms, instead of just calmly clearing them out with a wave of the hand. Sure, the wizard can easily blast many squares at a time... but just one square that gets to the wizard can shut her down hard.

D'karr · Sep 27, 2012

Wednesday Boy said:
Hey, you're right! I don't remember us using swarms in that way. Although it has been a while since we played 3.x and I have a goldfish's memory.

That is how we used swarms in 3.x, and then used the same way in 4e. Specially since swarms can squeeze through a place than even a single one of the creatures can fit through.

I was imagining a swarm that was bigger than 4 squares filling in the squares around a PC. But that sort of envelo
ping could work in conjuction with the swarm entering the PC's square.

Exactly, once the swarm enters the square where the PC is located it has enveloped the creature.

Maybe it would work in 4E to have it behave like a moveable Wall that could be entered or that could enter a PC's square and it would deal some sort of fallout from sharing the space with the PC.

I use it exactly as a movable wall. When I'm using a swarm, flanking doesn't work on it either. It has no front or back.

We've had some fun encounters with swarms. Needlefang drakes were horrible, my party was absolutely terrified of them.

Manbearcat · Sep 27, 2012

I'm a huge fan of 4e swarm mechanics (with aura, moving through and into enemy squares, resistance to single target damage and vulnerability to AoE) . They are so elegant/user-friendly, that, much like the Disease/Condition Track, they can be extended further to capture more than just the fiction and mechanics of "swarms" (locusts, spiders, rats, stirges, etc). I've used "Elite Swarms" multiple times for (i) herds/stampedes of medium/large sized creatures and to capture (ii) an out of control, bloodthirsty mob (peasants with pitchforks and torches) and finally (iii) a horde of chaotic, savage barbarians (with no specific formations...just literally a wave of "swarming", tactically-incoherent, seething flesh and steel). "Swarm" mechanics fantastically support those types of encounters/enemy dynamics. Once the Elite Swarm is bloodied, you can easily enough split them into a pre-specified number of single creatures.

cmbarona · Sep 27, 2012

I think some of these posts just show how flexible swarms can be. Awesome ideas, everyone. To the OP: was the problem with swarms due to them having too many HP, too restrictive resistances, or not enough rules that evoke a sense of what you're fighting?

I think there is plenty of precedent for swarms in action and fantasy literature, so I like that they are included. The key is including rules that are evocative of what exactly it is you're fighting.

My own shameless custom swarm plug: I had a campaign where a corporation specialized in using gelatinous cubes for domestic purposes. They could be infused with elemental properties (behold! lamp! oven! furnace! outhouse!) or even drugs (tiny cubes that could be swallowed that would die in stomach acid but help with that headache, or let one nibble on your finger for a bit for an "injection"). I made swarms of those tiny ones that could "stick" to any player it hit with an attack, and would turn into a Medium-sized cube engulfing the character if they stayed on long enough. Depending on what they were infused with, they could lead to a drug overdose. Trigger disease track!

[shameless 4e plug] I love how easy it was to make all that happen. [/shameless 4e plug]

Ratinyourwalls · Sep 30, 2012

I agree...I really hate the ways swarms work in older editions but I really don't want to have to roll for every attack roll when the party faces off against 50 rats.

There needs to be an option that works out there and it needs to be explored and worked on. As both a long time DM AND player nothing ruins a good combat scene like how the Swarms worked in 4E.

pemerton · Sep 30, 2012

Ratinyourwalls said:
nothing ruins a good combat scene like how the Swarms worked in 4E.

Can you elaborate?

Ratinyourwalls · Oct 3, 2012

pemerton said:
Can you elaborate?

More than one swarm in an encounter translates to "Do you have a controller/swordmage/dragonborn in the party? If yes -> Free pass to this encounter, if no -> Have fun with the clustergrind!"

Minions and swarms together can make for a great balls to the wall henchman mobfest battle, better at doing so than any prior edition, but it's still a head ache of 20 rolls per round and "use AOE or die!!!" mess.