D&D 5E What should the skill list look like?

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
That was definitely one of the things about Playtest 1 that I agreed with. A player doesn't say "I'm going to make an X check" (and by extension usually choosing a check they are really good at)... but instead says "I'm doing X" and then the DM selecting which ability score applies.

THAT'S the way I think it should be. Because it opens up the game more.

But as far as skills are concerned... the problem I feel with the skill lists (both in 3E and 4E) are that they are TOO BROAD. They apply TOO OFTEN. If the purpose of the game is REALLY to make ability checks be the primary function and be the BROAD check for things... then the bonuses from skills should be applied infrequently enough that they become a very special bonus... a much more FOCUSED knowledge or ability, and not an expected part of the game.

So no... I don't want to see Athletics as a skill. I don't want to see Arcane Lore as a skill. I most certainly do not want to see Perception as a skill. Because all of those "skills" pretty much REPLACE the ability check that they are meant to modify.

<snip>

If your Background is Artisan... you'll get +3 bonuses from me for various types of perception checks much more often than you would if you were a Knight or a Thug. You'd also get that +3 to recognize various images or pictures of things like heraldic banners or deity symbols... because you've got a trained eye to remember those kind of pictures (which otherwise would have only fallen under Skills like Historical Lore, Heraldic Lore or Religious Lore). As an Artisan, you'd get that +3 from me for CHA checks to impress a nobleman, or to pretend to be someone else (especially if your artistic expression was theater). But does that artistic eye give you a special +3 to find a secret door? If the door was hidden by being painted to look like the surrounding wall, maybe... but if its blocked by a moving bookcase or something, nope, not at all.

To me... your ability scores are paramount. THEY should rightly be the primary bonus modifier to any d20 check. But as soon as Skills become so broad and widespread that a PC rolls more than half of his checks GETTING the +3 bonus... the ability score checks have LOST whatever it was that was making them special.

I think you've got some good points about background, but where does that leave us for advancement and development? One of the best aspects of 3e's skill system was that a PC could invest in his skills and become a really good diplomat despite having a poor charisma. Experience could triumph over raw talent. I want that in a game and that's why I don't want the stats to simply be paramount. I want skill development to overshadow stats at some point.

It's also why I don't want all skills to be based off of background. I want my choices to broaden, improve, or develop my character as I play him. I don't want to be stuck just being a pirate or commoner. I want the ability to usher the character through transformations, perhaps from farmhand to notorious pirate or from gang enforcer to upstanding owner of a family diner.
 

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ZombieRoboNinja

First Post
So first, I'm guessing they'll take a page from paragon paths and introduce some mid-level character development. Level 6 would be a good place for that, so let's see the next playtest.

On the same lines, I'm hoping that you can get at least one or two new trained skills as you level without a specialty.
 

bogmad

First Post
It's also why I don't want all skills to be based off of background. I want my choices to broaden, improve, or develop my character as I play him. I don't want to be stuck just being a pirate or commoner. I want the ability to usher the character through transformations, perhaps from farmhand to notorious pirate or from gang enforcer to upstanding owner of a family diner.

Good point. I like the ideas for background instead of skills, but I don't like that it's stuck in the back. What do you call an expanded background when it develops in the present? Instead of just skills perhaps you could gain something else... I dunno... aspects? That word obviously is a little too close to certain other game systems, but instead of just gaining a mechanical talent perhaps you gain some sort of expanded story options for your character that let him do more things. They've already mentioned about how organizations might have to do with classes outside the core 4. Maybe you could gain access to different organizations and their associated talents with something similar to the multiclass feats from other editions.
 

dd.stevenson

Super KY
I think you've got some good points about background, but where does that leave us for advancement and development? One of the best aspects of 3e's skill system was that a PC could invest in his skills and become a really good diplomat despite having a poor charisma. Experience could triumph over raw talent. I want that in a game and that's why I don't want the stats to simply be paramount. I want skill development to overshadow stats at some point.

It's also why I don't want all skills to be based off of background. I want my choices to broaden, improve, or develop my character as I play him. I don't want to be stuck just being a pirate or commoner. I want the ability to usher the character through transformations, perhaps from farmhand to notorious pirate or from gang enforcer to upstanding owner of a family diner.

There would clearly need to be some system for keeping a character's background up-to-date as the character grows and changes. Worst case, the DM can always just remind players to think over/edit their background in light of their recent adventures during level up. Or maybe as a normal part of down time.
 

Elodan

Adventurer
This:

That was definitely one of the things about Playtest 1 that I agreed with. A player doesn't say "I'm going to make an X check" (and by extension usually choosing a check they are really good at)... but instead says "I'm doing X" and then the DM selecting which ability score applies.

THAT'S the way I think it should be. Because it opens up the game more.

But as far as skills are concerned... the problem I feel with the skill lists (both in 3E and 4E) are that they are TOO BROAD. They apply TOO OFTEN. If the purpose of the game is REALLY to make ability checks be the primary function and be the BROAD check for things... then the bonuses from skills should be applied infrequently enough that they become a very special bonus... a much more FOCUSED knowledge or ability, and not an expected part of the game.

...
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
If we are going to get something similar to the current model (i.e. not something out of left field that turns out to be more nifty than I can imagine), then I'd like to see skills broken into two distinct pieces:
  • Category A gives narrow but significant bonuses in something. DefCon1's discussion of "Commerce" fits this category.
  • Category B provides breadth. A character can now do something that they couldn't do otherwise.
And never the twain shall meet. I'd guess that about half the problems in the 3E/4E/Next skill systems are because the same skills expand what can be done and provide bonuses to it.

Alternately, replace Category A with Category C - a handful of relative broad, modest bonus picks that apply across several activities. If this option is chosen, then it needs to be clear that such picks apply to multiple ability scores.

In Next terms thus far, C would be something like the background itself ("Commoner +2"), A would be like that "Commerce" skill, and B would be a new thing, perhaps "training" which would deliberately be changed by campaign. Though obviously since A and C aren't meant to be used together, the exact combination used would free up "skill" in different ways.

But let's say for sake of argument that we go with "training" as A and "skill" as B. Then backgrounds and class features (e.g. rogue schemes) provide "training". They expand what your character can do using the normal ability checks. Meanwhile, "skill" is getting better at whatever you can do, regardless of how you got that training in the first place--or even when it "comes with breathing as an adventurer" through the ability checks. "Skill" comes with level (including first, perhaps).

Then provide default lists for A and B, but there is no particular need for a given group to stick with those defaults. And it's pretty easy to determine them. Not everyone can swim. So swim is "training". But some campaigns decide that practically everyone can. So it's no longer "training" but rolled up into Str and/or Con. Playing a rather "rogue-ish" campaign where everyone is rather shady, but no one takes the rogue class? Maybe "lock picking" and "handle traps" are rolled into Dex. Play more traditional, they are "training". Meanwhile, "skills" are merely specializations where you excell, while ability score bonuses are more broad.

Finally, you'll note that inherent in this idea is that there is a default list of "training" options that are assumed to be turned off and thus rolled into the ability checks--just in case you want to narrow this somewhat. That is, somewhere they list "jump" and "balance" and "spot" and so on as "training" options that are not necessary to take in order to use. This clarifies what ability checks can do for everyone, and explicitly encourages you to change it here if you don't quite like the list.
 

LostSoul

Adventurer
I think you've got some good points about background, but where does that leave us for advancement and development? One of the best aspects of 3e's skill system was that a PC could invest in his skills and become a really good diplomat despite having a poor charisma. Experience could triumph over raw talent. I want that in a game and that's why I don't want the stats to simply be paramount. I want skill development to overshadow stats at some point.

It's also why I don't want all skills to be based off of background. I want my choices to broaden, improve, or develop my character as I play him. I don't want to be stuck just being a pirate or commoner. I want the ability to usher the character through transformations, perhaps from farmhand to notorious pirate or from gang enforcer to upstanding owner of a family diner.

Quick thoughts:

You could invest ranks into skills even if they are labelled as "backgrounds". That should be pretty easy. I can see it for something like "Born on the street", you develop skills that would help you get by on the streets.

You could add new skills that aren't necessarily backgrounds only - label some "training" and those ones can be bought later on.
 

tlantl

First Post
I think you've got some good points about background, but where does that leave us for advancement and development? One of the best aspects of 3e's skill system was that a PC could invest in his skills and become a really good diplomat despite having a poor charisma. Experience could triumph over raw talent. I want that in a game and that's why I don't want the stats to simply be paramount. I want skill development to overshadow stats at some point.

It's also why I don't want all skills to be based off of background. I want my choices to broaden, improve, or develop my character as I play him. I don't want to be stuck just being a pirate or commoner. I want the ability to usher the character through transformations, perhaps from farmhand to notorious pirate or from gang enforcer to upstanding owner of a family diner.

I don't think we need to have players advancing skills, all it does is make me have to increase the DC of things just to keep them interesting for the guy who trained in the skill. This is a real problem for the player who didn't happen to have trained in that skill.

This is the essence of the problem with 3e skills progression (and advancement in general as I see it).

I'd have no problem at all with a player wanting to become well trained in something. if he told me he was willing to take game time off to learn another skill and pay for it with coin or service I'd gladly give him another trained skill with the +3 bonus. I'm not going to let everyone just add a point to a trained skill because he earned enough experience points beating things up to level his character. This kind of thinking is why WotC versions of the game are such broken messes.

I also believe that once you know how to do something you really can't get very much better. If you know how to climb a wall or swim or have training in diplomacy or riding a horse, then you know how to do these things and only need to make a check if there is a reason to think that your training is insufficient for the task, like swimming in white water rapids or climbing up a wet wall or convincing a vampire that drinking blood was going to kill him.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I don't think we need to have players advancing skills, all it does is make me have to increase the DC of things just to keep them interesting for the guy who trained in the skill. This is a real problem for the player who didn't happen to have trained in that skill.


But then how do you differentiate a commoner who can swim well and a expert who be be an Olympic swimmer in transported to present day Earth.

I'd like to be able to have my character enhance his skills, gain new ones, and apply his skill to a breath of situation.
 


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