What's the Best System for Running LotR?

I can't speak for DragonLancer, but for me the power level and combat focus of "out of the box" D&D et alii doesn't mesh with where I'd want the power level and focus of a Middle Earth game.

I think the biggest challenge is assumed level of overt magic; D&D is typically magic-heavy and flashy while ME is not -- which I think can be addressed by the use of low-levels and low magic. "Combat focus" is a DM construction; D&D has a lot of combat mechanics but that doesn't have to be the whole game.

I could certainly run a 3rd- or 4th-Age ME game with D&D rules; I think it converts best with BECMI rules or 3E (in fact the Middle Earth conversions thread has my take on low-level, low magic 3E ME).
 

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RobShanti

Explorer
I can't speak for DragonLancer, but for me the power level and combat focus of "out of the box" D&D et alii doesn't mesh with where I'd want the power level and focus of a Middle Earth game.

Which is what, exactly, Nytmare, if you don't mind me asking? (I'm not asking to be contentious, but rather out of a genuine interest in what folks feel a Middle-earth-based game should be like.) Are you talking about what Olgar mentions in the post immediately preceding this one, regarding the assumed level of overt magic and the combat focus of D&D's game mechanics, or something else/more?
 
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mmadsen

First Post
I think the biggest challenge is assumed level of overt magic; D&D is typically magic-heavy and flashy while ME is not -- which I think can be addressed by the use of low-levels and low magic.
Resetting assumptions so that, say, sixth level is epic level goes a long way, if your group can accept that Gandalf is a fifth-level wizard.

But the total amount of magic isn't necessarily the problem. Middle Earth magic doesn't appear the least bit Vancian. Rather, it appears to exhaust the caster, and, more importantly, it can give away the position of one important wizard traveling without an army.

"Combat focus" is a DM construction; D&D has a lot of combat mechanics but that doesn't have to be the whole game.
D&D's combat rules make it difficult to achieve a Tolkien-esque feel, because so many tough opponents -- Smaug, the Witch King, a fell beast in the night -- die from a single (maybe-magical) blow or two, but combat isn't necessarily super-lethal overall, and magical healing works largely between scenes.
 

ColonelHardisson

What? Me Worry?
Way back when, in the days I was actively posting in the d20 Middle-earth threads, and helping maintain the Middle-earth d20 part of EN World (there was one, then), it became clear to me that there would never be agreement on what system to use for Middle-earth, because everyone interprets the books differently, and often in a very personal way. So, while I think that a modified version of D&D - any edition - could be used, others adamantly reject the notion.

That's not to say the discussion isn't worth having. The suggestions here in this thread have all been good and thoughtful. I think, though, that you need to figure out what Middle-earth is to you. Is it low magic, or high magic that is just more subtle in its effects? Was Smaug killed outright by one shot in a game system that is more about hit locations, or did all the other arrows shot at him whittle him down hit-point-wise in a D&D-like system so Bard could take him out with that Black Arrow? Or was the Black Arrow "of slaying"? There is no right or wrong answer here; I'm just pointing out how everyone can interpret the same thing differently. I'd say pick a game system you already like and see what can be done to capture whatever it is that comprises the "feel" of Middle-earth to you.
 


But the total amount of magic isn't necessarily the problem. Middle Earth magic doesn't appear the least bit Vancian. Rather, it appears to exhaust the caster, and, more importantly, it can give away the position of one important wizard traveling without an army.

Unsurprising, since Tolkien was writing a story and not designing a game with balance as a primary consideration, but I think it smacked of an unfortunate tendency I noted in old AD&D adventures. (I "blame" the culture rather than the game system. You could run a Fourthcore adventure exactly the same way.) Note that numerous old-school D&D players will see what I'm about to say as a feature rather than a bug :) The issue was combat was a puzzle.

Combat in LotR was a puzzle. The heroes frequently find themselves outmatched (eg Aragorn facing nine ringwraiths) and they'll lose unless they find the solution. (In Aragorn's case, he took advantage of the ringwraiths' extreme fear of fire.) Did Aragorn win by using superior tactics? Maybe, but 9 ringwraiths should be smarter than him. Did he win because he fights well? Definitely not. He won by solving the puzzle.

Maybe Gandalf could have defeated those trolls in The Hobbit, or maybe he couldn't. Said troll captured 13 or so dwarves and a hobbit to boot, so I'm guessing not. However, he could fool them into staying out until the sun came out, turning the powerful creatures into stone statues. Puzzle solved!

I experienced something similar in a Fourthcore adventure we went through. The adventure was called "Murder of the Something Queen" and I downloaded the free adventure after playing. The final boss was listed as a 1st to 3rd level solo (I don't think her actual level was listed, but you can tell based on her attack bonuses and defenses)... but if that was the case she was hideously overpowered. She had abilities that could literally melt PCs in the space of a round, making her a scarier threat than an elder orb beholder (a 19th-level solo!), even though her hit points and "fundamental" stats were pretty balanced.

Having said that, she was a "puzzle boss". The PCs could find up to two one-shot items that could make killing her easier. (We actually experienced an out-of-combat TPK when we failed to solve the puzzle the first time, and ended up creating a new party! The second time we found all the items; it was actually difficult to even find the queen without solving the puzzles, which gave up the items as a reward.) My own PC, a rogue, threw one of the items (an orb) at her, which did 40 or 60 damage plus my Dex bonus plus sneak attack plus Backstab and maybe Weapon Finesse... so 40 or 60 damage from the item and maybe 18 damage from my own abilities, which were as powerful as an E-thief gets since there's no dailies. I felt rather miffed at this, actually, as it meant my own character abilities weren't relevant. We killed her in one and a half rounds, although a PC did get melted. Whether we won or not depended on whether we solved the puzzle. (Personal note: Some people love to play this way, but I don't think D&D has ever been good at supporting that style of play.)

The movie was into this as well. Near the end of the third film, Gandalf the White leads an army against the orcs. He appears to use a brilliant nimbus of light to blind them, giving his army considerable advantage. Does this mean Gandalf kicked butt with combat magic? Nope. He did that puzzle thing again. Orcs are weak against light. I doubt Gandalf could do more than slightly dazzle an army of humans. (I don't recall how this section went in the books, by the way.)

Gandalf's (and elf-mage) power seemed mainly tied up in "rituals" and utility spells that could have combat purposes, rather than being a blaster, crowd-controller, or what have you. An example would be the heroes fleeing to Rivendell. They had to cross that river. The ringwraiths tried to follow, when a massive blast of water took 'em out. Gandalf later said that the power had come mainly from Elrond and his elf ring (or maybe it was someone else and her elf ring?) but he had used his own ring to help shape the water (into the form of horses, IIRC).

If Elrond or Galadriel could dish out that kind of combat magic on the field, no one would be claiming they're only 6th-level. However, their combat magic was either weak or non-existent, and Gandalf's ability to set pine cones on fire and chase wolves was considered intimidating. There's currently no class in D&D that could replicate that, not in any edition of D&D I've played (2nd through 4th and playtested 5th, although only once). Although I suppose if Gandalf is a high-level fighter with multiclass wizard training, very few wizard powers and the Ritual Caster feat...

D&D's combat rules make it difficult to achieve a Tolkien-esque feel, because so many tough opponents -- Smaug, the Witch King, a fell beast in the night -- die from a single (maybe-magical) blow or two, but combat isn't necessarily super-lethal overall, and magical healing works largely between scenes.

Smaug was killed via puzzle too, although that one was easy. Sneak in, see the hole in his armor, report on it (did they actually do that, or did Bard make an epic Spot check?) and then narrate how you solved the puzzle.

The Witch King might be a subversion. Yes he was killed by someone figuring out an easy riddle, but I got the impression that he was actually a challenge. Solving the riddle just kept him from cheating. (Of course, it seems it only took two or three hits to kill him.)

I don't remember the fell beast, sorry. Anyone want to refresh my memory?
 
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I think the biggest challenge is assumed level of overt magic; D&D is typically magic-heavy and flashy while ME is not -- which I think can be addressed by the use of low-levels and low magic. "Combat focus" is a DM construction; D&D has a lot of combat mechanics but that doesn't have to be the whole game.

I could certainly run a 3rd- or 4th-Age ME game with D&D rules; I think it converts best with BECMI rules or 3E (in fact the Middle Earth conversions thread has my take on low-level, low magic 3E ME).

I really disagree with those conversions.

1: Gandalf. He has what level in Wizard? That's how many spells/day? Does not play like Gandalf.
2: Legolas Greenleaf. Keen are the eyes of the elves. Seriously, in 3.X Legolas needs to be a ranger for the skill points. (This is a big failure of the fighter class in general)
3: Hobbits. Not happy with any of them - NPC classes for one, lacking in move silently for a second.

But it's easy to pull the magic right out of 4e and leave just the ritual casting.

Gandalf's (and elf-mage) power seemed mainly tied up in "rituals" and utility spells that could have combat purposes, rather than being a blaster, crowd-controller, or what have you.

This. A thousand times this. Which is why I claim that 4e is the only suitable edition of D&D to date for LotR. Ritual magic and swordplay.

Although I suppose if Gandalf is a high-level fighter with multiclass wizard training, very few wizard powers and the Ritual Caster feat...

Meh. Call him a 4e bard and you're done. Swordplay, some mostly coincidental magic, powers like Lesser Flash of Distraction or Blunder, and rituals.

That said for all I'm saying 4e is better than any other edition of D&D for Middle Earth, it isn't The One Ring. It's good enough to work rather than being an actual good match.
 
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DragonLancer

Adventurer
DragonLancer, I'd be interested to know why, exactly. What is it specifically you feel D&D and Pathfinder are missing to make the systems fit the Middle Earth feel?

It's not something I can easily explain. I find that a given game system may or may not work with the feel of a given setting. For example I have never found Dark Sun to feel right under anything except 2nd ed AD&D. The feel of the setting is just lost under 3.X or Rolemaster (two example systems that I have tried it with).

Another example would be many many years ago (late 1990's) I tried to use the Storyteller system from White Wolf (a system my friends and I were very familair with then) to try and run a short lived campaign in the Babylon 5 universe. It did it's job but no one felt that we had captured the feel of that universe with that rules system.

With MERP it was just right for my group and I in capturing the feel of Middle Earth. We were able to fit ourselves into that world because our perception of the system meshed with the feel of the setting.

I'm not sure I can explain anything better that that as it's very much a personal feel on the topic.
 

IronWolf

blank
I'm not sure I can explain anything better that that as it's very much a personal feel on the topic.


I know where you are coming from. Middle-earth has a very distinctive feel to it. Systems that ignore that or weren't intended for that have a tougher time of emulating the world. Now a GM could probably tweak a system enough to get that feel, but as for systems that actually capture that feel mechanically without GM involvement, I think it is a small list.

Have you tried The One Ring or read through it?
 

It's not something I can easily explain. I find that a given game system may or may not work with the feel of a given setting. For example I have never found Dark Sun to feel right under anything except 2nd ed AD&D. The feel of the setting is just lost under 3.X or Rolemaster (two example systems that I have tried it with).

Another example would be many many years ago (late 1990's) I tried to use the Storyteller system from White Wolf (a system my friends and I were very familair with then) to try and run a short lived campaign in the Babylon 5 universe. It did it's job but no one felt that we had captured the feel of that universe with that rules system.

With MERP it was just right for my group and I in capturing the feel of Middle Earth. We were able to fit ourselves into that world because our perception of the system meshed with the feel of the setting.

I'm not sure I can explain anything better that that as it's very much a personal feel on the topic.

And one on which mileage varies. I find Dark Sun to feel much better under 4e than 2e - at least in part because preserving/defiling works so much better as a temptation mechanic than as a binary choice. And Rolemaster Light just has the wrong magic and far too much of a gritty feel to me for Middle Earth.
 

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