High-Level Play

Greg K · Nov 5, 2012

Grimmjow said:
isnt the point of the playtest to make sure we have good rules on day one?

I tried to XP you. Can someone, please, cover me?

mlund · Nov 5, 2012

There's always been a problem with D&D's leveling system basically being little more than a treadmill for increasingly irrelevant HP on the one hand and disgustingly broken Spell Slots on the other. Once you started hitting double-digits the disparity got so awful many people wouldn't even play it. It's a problem for AD&D to 3E, it's a problem for Pathfinder, and it is even a problem for 4E to some extent.

The idea that the transition from level 1 to 2 need not be the same scale as moving from 10 to 11 was an important one. 4E instituted Tiers, but then failed to adjust the scaling. D&DNext can finally push this past the finish line.

The low-level experience has bee about getting better at fighting, surviving, and blowing things up. The higher-level experience needs to be focused on more than that. Yes, you still get better and killing baddies with swords and sorcery or to evade swinging blade traps - but at a slower rate. Instead you start to accumulate a different sort of power.

- Marty Lund

Ferghis · Nov 5, 2012

Deleted.

Blackbrrd · Nov 5, 2012

Lord Mhoram said:
For me 3rd - you don't have to cower in fear of a fight.
5th - you are actually up to fights that get a little hair.
7th - People are beginning to know your name.
9th - Mover and shaking in a City level.
11th - moving out of city and into region areas, and starting planar adventuring.
13th - moving into king level, more planer, and interacting with middle level lower planar and minor servants of the Gods.
15 - start to make a name on a country level, and knowing kings and being recognized by minor servants.
17 - major player in country/world events, lots of interactions with planar creatures.
20 - Moving to major world events - major planar and inter-world stuff
25 - Major mover and shaker in planer (including fighting name demons and interacting with the gods

Retirement is never an automatic thing - it happens when the player gets tired of playing the character.

This article leaves my preferred high level play not mentioned. Although a module could do it.

That's the problem with changing the game to what most people play. Most people isn't everybody. 3e had an epic level handbook and 1e had three different books covering up to level 12, 24 and 36.

There is some advantages in my opinion to not releasing the whole level range at launch. It does give them time to learn from mistakes done for the first level range and adjust their plans for the paragon/epic levels. Something 4e probably would have benefitted from.

How would you feel if they released 5e without anything past level 10, but they said it would arrive later?

kitsune9 · Nov 5, 2012

I must be in the minority, but I love high-level play. Neither me nor my group find high-level play a hassle. I love designing or running adventures for it, I don't mind that characters will likely choose fly or teleport to get to their destinations and we have no problem adding up numbers to +30 to +40 on the die roll. There's something awesome about rolling 15d6 in damage or doing 100+ points of damage from a single attack.

Every campaign I ran, we always go into the high teens or low 20's since 3.0.

Probably the only gripe I could have about high-level play is that designing NPCs to fight takes a bit longer so more time is devoted toward statting out bad guys instead of writing up the adventure, but I still manage.

Grimmjow · Nov 5, 2012

Derren said:
So people, under no circumstances, will respect anyone unless he has killed 1472342 goblins and reached level 10 no matter his birth or deeds?

In the end this is just a continuation of epic destinies coupled with AD&Ds 10th level requirement.
Lets see if WotC actually manages to make it about more then power for dungeon crawling and if the rest of the system is actually able to handle political etc. gameplay.

well i dont know about the rest of the people here but by the time im playing level 3+ im not fighting goblins anymore. By the time your level 10 your becoming famous for the deeds you done. It might be slaying a powerful enemy, delving into many dangerous dungeons, or killing 1472342 goblins but people are starting to see that you've got something special about you.

If you stand up in the town square at level one whose going to take you seriously when you ask people to help you build a castle and an army? When you come back after kill 1million + goblins, people may take you a little more seriously

Lord Mhoram · Nov 6, 2012

Blackbrrd said:
That's the problem with changing the game to what most people play. Most people isn't everybody. 3e had an epic level handbook and 1e had three different books covering up to level 12, 24 and 36.

There is some advantages in my opinion to not releasing the whole level range at launch. It does give them time to learn from mistakes done for the first level range and adjust their plans for the paragon/epic levels. Something 4e probably would have benefitted from.

How would you feel if they released 5e without anything past level 10, but they said it would arrive later?

This is true - and I know that my preference for really high level universe shaking play is really unusual. I know I am looking forward to what Pathfinder is coming out with for to be Big Damn Heroes.

As for how I would feel - I likely wouldn't buy the game until support for 20th or 30th level was released. When the final levels are done, then I'd get the game. But if the core book cannot take a character from start of play until at least 2 or 3 real years later then I'll wait until it can.

- although if no ads or discussion were about high level play were forthcoming then I would likely slow down my purchasing and playing of the game - I was slowing down on 3rd until Epic Level Handbook was being pushed hard. If it takes 2 or 3 years before we even get info on such rules, I'd probably be playing something else by that point (either 3.x or Hero or something that handles really high power the way I like).

If high level play slows power accrual down, I'm cool with it, as long as the level where it slows down has the players as hobnobbing with Kings and major court mages in powerlevel. My 3.x/Pathfinder epic rules look an awful lot like "E20" - after 20th only feats, and I have a number of feats homebrewed to be able to get class abilities.

I had figured a base rulebook until 10th (based on article) and high level play in a module, even if released later would be what we see, and as long as the high level was out by the time the characters were 7th, that would be ok. If I hit 10th and rules for playing the game past there were not out, I'd bail on the game.

I tend to feel 5th level is when the character actually starts being a decent character to play, and 11-12 is when it really comes alive. Before 5th is just there to go through as fast as possible to get to the good stuff (1st - 3rd editions). Unsurprisingly E6 is the antithisis of my approach.

My personal reaction was "But...but... but you are stopping just when it is starting to get good!" That kind of play just isn't my style.

Manbearcat · Nov 6, 2012

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally posted by Mike Mearls
We're also moving away from giving you a lot of stuff at each level. In most cases, you get a spell or a class feature. This means casters get fewer spells—more on that later—and that most characters have about five to ten things to manage at 10th level. Beyond 10th, we're cutting back the rate at which you get even more stuff. Characters are simpler and easier to play, and DMs should have a much easier time tracking what the party can get away with. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Its always been my experience that Epic Level gaming is dysfunctional not from the player's side of the screen, but primarily from the DM's side of the screen. Neither sheer number of choice amongst PC resource deployment nor tracking of deployed resources sows this dysfunction, but rather game-narrowing unconstrained potency amidst those resources...and typically only a select few. Great Epic Level games are short-circuited by Teleport, Divinations, Geas, Flying, Polymorph, Wish, etc. When you have resources on your character sheet that basically say "nullify this type of adventure" or "castrate the climactic impact of this type of challenge", the game changes. When they cover enough territory, the breadth and scope of possible adventure angles narrow such that the game becomes stale and ends. That is the problem with Epic Level. Not number of resources or tracking...but potency. I'm baffled by the above paragraph.

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally posted by Mike Mearls
Finally, collapsing abilities at high levels makes those individual abilities more powerful. Characters should grow stronger, and if we're delivering power in fewer class features or spell slots, those specific abilities can afford to be quite powerful. We can deliver the promise of a high-level character in a manner that is easier for players to understand and for DMs to plan around. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Ummm. If 1 above is true, I fail to understand how this bit addresses the problem. In fact all it does is exacerbate it. If they're going the route of LESS RESOURCES FOR MOAR POWER, then I would say that they actually have the formula exactly wrong.

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally posted by Mike Mearls
That's just the base assumption, though. We want a game where you can continue looting dungeons to level 20 if that's what you want. If you want the game to change, you can implement options we're calling the legacy system. Under this system, a rogue can found a thieves' guild, a cleric can establish a temple, a fighter can gain a stronghold and followers, and a wizard can research new spells. The legacy system speaks to your characters' place in the world and, in a literal sense, the legacy he or she will leave behind. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Sounds good...so long as they are backed by functional, robust mechanics. If we have mini-games/sub-systems that allow "Sim-Epic Archetype Syndicate" that interfaces nicely with the mechanics for actually playing your PC through an adventure, then the layfolk shall rejoice.

pogre · Nov 6, 2012

About one in four or five of my campaigns reach high levels 15+. I have only had a couple of campaigns that ventured well into the 20+ range. Nonetheless, I like the idea of high level play. I like how the game changes into a pseudo super-hero game. Not having that possibility available on release would be kind of a bummer for me.

I guess I just start every campaign optimistically hoping it will be one of those long range, earth shattering, epic campaigns by its conclusion.

Knowing that my group doesn't usually play at high levels does not make me want high level rules less.

pemerton · Nov 6, 2012

I like high level play, in two senses:

(1) play in which the protagonists are epic heroes and teh fictional stakes are high (gods, demons, heroes who can dispatch 100 normal men and determine the fate of the mortal world, etc);

(2) play in which these high stakes are reflectd by a somewhat correlative degree of mechanical intricacy and specificity.

I'm not too fussed by Mearls' suggestion of keeping the number of options down a bit - though in the current playtest a wizard or cleric at 10th level will have way more than 5 options when memorising spells! (Which is where a lot of the action is in Vancian high level play.) My worries would be the standard LFQW/CoDzilla ones - will fighters and rogues get a comparable range of abilities for dealing with the non-combat pillars? - and also the ones that [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] raises: I don't want high level play to turn into spellcaster rock/paper/scissors.

I like Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies because they give the player an opportunity to buy into the gameworld in a serious way, and to shape the agenda of play in a way that is reflected in their mechanical build. I'd like the Legacy idea to continue to provide that opportunity in some fashion. (The PC-pool aspect doesn't excite me so much.)

And on a side-note:

Greg K said:
One of the areas that 4e dropped the ball in my opinion and that of others was milestones.

<snip>

The dungeon based milestones cut off a lot of other types of adventures. The design team needs to ensure that the games support more styles than just dungeon crawling and killing monsters during the first ten levels

4e milestones are dungeon-crawl and combat neutral. You can earn them for dealing with non-combat challenges just as much as combat ones.