Why does the idea of no Free Will bother some people?

Janx

Hero
If free will doesn't exist, the illusion of free will may have been an evolutionary advantage - maybe brains work better if they have the capacity to believe in free will build in?

Librarmarian pointed out that we tend to act more aggressively if we think we don't have free will.

The inverse of that implying, we tend to work cooperatively/peacefully with others when we believe we have free will.

This would be part of how we survive and succeed as a society. We wouldn't get as far, if we each acted only in our immediate self interests.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
...but which they may, under certain circumstances, learn to control.

Yes, certainly. You can be trained to think more critically, for example. The issue I was referring to was more that having a feeling is not necessarily indicative of reality. Our feelings are useful, but not 100% accurate.
 

Janx

Hero
Except that human beings are capable of feelings and perceptions over which they do not have control. So, it is in theory possible for us to "feel" like we have will, but have that feeling be merely one more automatic response, an illusion.



Given current technology, I expect it is not testable.

We are at the point that we can tell that sometimes (scarily often) our decision process goes through what amounts to emotional processing before it ever hits logical processing. That emotional processing is not conscious - it generally produces results that we then attach logical reasons to after the fact. But, that doesn't mean it isn't "free will" - there may still be a personal choice buried in there, rather than what amounts to emotional algorithmic processing.

It sounds like you're agreeing with my opening argument that we are moist robots and do not have free will....

To me, that we are/aren't moist robots isn't really up for discussion. Once we invent dry robots based on identical modelling of the human brain, we are, by definition, moist robots (as in, the opposite of dry, and applying the same noun as the dry version is a replica of the wet version).

So that mostly leaves Free Will, whether we have it, and extending the argument to, whether we will recognize it in other alien/manufactured entities when we meet them.

The Turing test is really elegant and simple. If a human talks to an AI in a chat room, and can't tell it's an AI, then the AI is indeed an AI, rather than a conglomeration of algorithms.

Given how dumb some chat rooms can be, I think mastering the art of conversation, doesn't fully prove the program is Intelligent, or Willful (as in having Free Will like a Human thinks he has).

But I like the setup of the Turing Test. It would seem that philosophically (rather than technologically), a test can be defined that determines if the test candidate has this Free Wiill stuff or not.

to me, I suspect that Intelligence, and Willfulness would be tied to problem solving, in the sense of solving the problem without actually knowing how to solve the problem first.

Given stimuli, like the house is on fire, humans, dogs and robots all execute pretty much the same code. there's not exactly thinking going on that illustrates Free Will, as in my dog and non Free Will robot can do the same thing you can do.

But setting up the participant to make some choices and come up with a new solution that isn't "pre-programmed" seems like that might be the key.

I believe, that if you have this mysterious Free Will, it means that you are able to consider a situation, identify the obvious optimum choice, and come up with new non-obvious choices.

Computers and Neural networks are always making choices, and assessing priority, and usually choosing the pre-programmed path (get food, get to safety).

Somebody with Free Will can transcend that programming and do something new.

Like the veteran who shoved his wife off the parade float in Midland yesterday and saved her life when the train hit. He died.

A dumb robot programmed for self presevation (or my dog*) would have moved itself out of the way. it took higher level thinking (free will?) to choose an alternate plan to save another person instead.

I'd hate to get mushy, but self sacrifice might be a demonstration of Free Will in that the entity is bypassing a default behavior (self preservation) in lieu of another choice.

*I like dogs. Dogs being able to save other people at risk to themselves may be qualifying for this Free Will status as well. It's a grey area as animal software does cover animals protecting their young/pack/territory and may not count as "going beyond their programming"
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
It sounds like you're agreeing with my opening argument that we are moist robots and do not have free will....

No, I am not agreeing with your opening argument. I'm saying:

1) I don't think it is testable with current technology or understanding.

2) Some of our decision making process is emotional and sub-conscious, but I specifically say that *doesn't* automatically make it "meat robot" thinking.

To me, that we are/aren't moist robots isn't really up for discussion. Once we invent dry robots based on identical modelling of the human brain, we are, by definition, moist robots (as in, the opposite of dry, and applying the same noun as the dry version is a replica of the wet version).

My understanding is that the top robotic and AI work being done is *not* modelling on the human brain. The human brain doesn't work at all like a computer's CPU. Trying to reach machine AI using our meat model is kind of a square peg/round hole thing.

I'd hate to get mushy, but self sacrifice might be a demonstration of Free Will in that the entity is bypassing a default behavior (self preservation) in lieu of another choice.

Sorry, but then ants and worker bees have free will - the icons of living without free will are all about self-sacrifice for the good of the hive/nest. For animals that tend to live in groups, altruistic behavior has value, in an evolutionary sense.
 

tomBitonti

Adventurer
Here's a new topic I been meaning to start.
But here's the thing, if we DID, we would know EXACTLY what would happen next. Because what happens next is based on the exact current position, velocity and trajectory of every unit of matter and energy in the universe. Including the insides of your brain.

Except, this is not true. Uncertainty is not the only barrier to knowing what will happen. The difficulty of running a simulation is there too. See:

http://www.wisdom.weizmann.ac.il/~naor/COURSE/feynman-simulating.pdf

Thx!
 

JustinAlexander

First Post
So, before I go into the details of my position, how do you feel about Free Will right now?

There is absolutely no rational reason not to act as if we had free will.

If we have free will, then I'm right.

If we don't, then my decision to act as if we do have free will was predetermined anyway.

What it really is is an homage to the Hisenberg Uncertainty Principle, which basically says that for all practical purposes, we can't really know the exact positional details of every atom or quantum doohickey that makes up the universe at any point in time. But here's the thing, if we DID...

Right. But we don't. We can't. And, more importantly, the universe can't either.

It's important to understand that quantum mechanics is not due to some failure of our instruments: The universe itself really is uncertain. (Do some research on the two-slit experiment for a relatively simple example of this.)

What you're doing is confusing the Heisenberg uncertainty principle (which is a statement about the actual physical properties of the universe) for an observer effect (in which the observer alters the state of what is being observed). This is a common error, but an error nonetheless.

If we do have actual free will (and not some biological predeterminism) then it will almost certainly be an emergent property out of quantum mechanics.

that's a not a good thing for the idea of Free Will, if somebody can fiddle with your brain, and change your behavior.

That doesn't follow logically at all. The ability to remove free will would not logically result in the conclusion that it never existed at all.
 

Remove ads

Top