Alignmet help

Fhalyassa · Nov 18, 2012

What would make a demon slowly turn from Chaotic Evil to Lawful Evil? In the MotP Dread ritual Asmodeus used on Trial turned him into Baalzebul.

Sunseeker · Nov 18, 2012

Fhalyassa said:
What would make a demon slowly turn from Chaotic Evil to Lawful Evil? In the MotP Dread ritual Asmodeus used on Trial turned him into Baalzebul.

If we're assuming that evil, good, chaos and law are all social constructs, then basically the character would need a proper motivation. Love, betrayal, self-discovery(introspection), and so on.

For example, we use your idea of a succubus. A succubus is a creature that draws it's life energy from the sexual passion of it's victims. A succubus can eat, drink and sleep just fine, but it's supernatural existence requires supernatural sustenence.

Perhaps she is exiled from the Abyss for say, falling in love with a Paladin. The Paladin may love her back, but cannot stay with her until she changes her evil ways. Now that she has proper motivation, she travels the world, at first sticking to her old ways, but as she attempts to live a normal live, she finds feeding on sexual energy less filling than it was before. Trying other sins with no avail, she turns to more mundane things that mortals use to make their own lives more fulfilling. Perhaps she takes up a hobby, gets a job, learns a musical instrument. Instead of taking from others, she finds she is more fulfilled buy hard work and giving and receiving freely than she was by taking through seduction and force.

Succubi and other evil creatures take life because they are abhorrent to the natural flow of life. By spurning her evil ways and living a god and wholesome lifestyle, she finds that she is able to survive on the natural energy of life that exists in the world. Or perhaps even small acts of giving freely by humans is a more potent sustenance than forced taking.

As I mentioned in my previous post, magical influence to "turn good" or "turn evil" can be shallow without personal motivation from the character to stay that way. One can magically induce a person to be good or evil, but that person surely won't stay that way if they have no motivation to do so.

emoplato · Nov 19, 2012

Fhalyassa said:
What about Asmodeus turning her into a devil? Aasmodeus did that to Baalzbuel when he was Triel (MotP )

What about her possibly trying to found out some way to bring back her family if it is possible?

If Lawful Evil is your goal than the story should reflect the reason why she turned her back on chaos. A demon typically won't go straight to the devils unless they are trying to mess with them. I would say before she met the love of her life she saw little point in facilitating the cycle of destruction and manipulation just for delighting in another's misery. She did as she was instructed but met a rather peaceful hermit. Despite him catching her in the act all he did was explain his disapproval. This of course resonates with what already she was struggling with. She then follows this man abandoning her place among the Tanari under false pretenses. He, being a sort of naturalist, explains the systems and structures he sees in the world. She falls in love with him and the place he is trying to create, but a large group of skilled thieves and thugs on the run kill him and raid his home for supplies. Then to cover their tracks and ward off their pursuers set the forest ablaze. She therefore learns to despise such selfishness and vows to bring the wrath of order to bring about such structure.
I don't care whether you go with the tree-hugging angle or not. It just made more sense for the guy to be a naturalist hermit as you only have to worry about him and not others accepting her, possibly making a case against law/tradition. I also know I didn't really provide whether he loved her as I was focusing on her revoking chaos. Of course feel free to construct more of an intimate relationship.

dragonfriend7738 · Nov 19, 2012

Fhalyassa said:
What would make a demon slowly turn from Chaotic Evil to Lawful Evil? In the MotP Dread ritual Asmodeus used on Trial turned him into Baalzebul.

I had to do a little lore research to find what you were referencing.

I'm not sure if the ritual was detailed in the Manual of the Planes (is there a different MotP book?) but the Fiendish Codex 2 describes Triel's fall from grace as that of a Celestial being corrupted. (page 65, if you want to look.) That's not that difficult to understand as Triel and Baalzebul are both Lawful. Also, if a devil could succeed in corrupting a celestial into evil, they would gain rediculous prestige and rank in the devil society, which explains why Triel would have been corrupted instead of killed outright.

If you wanted a demon to become a devil as per a ritual used by an archfiend, you'd have to explain why the devil would break contract in the first place. (Consider the Pact Primeval and the reason why the Devils were created in the first place; namely to fight and destroy the forces of chaos- i.e. the demons. Being evil is secondary to them, and just the perks of the job.) Alternatively, you'd have to explain why your particular demon would warrant different treatment from the devil responsible (conversion to law rather than obliteration.)

I can see a demon or even a devil going neutral or possibly even good, given a well enough detailed story, but without some drastic intervention (ritual or other magical event) I don't think them shifting to the opposite of their Law/Chaos axis would be warranted. They're too infused with the essence of their respective axis.

As a DM, if someone wanted to play a lawful demon or a chaotic devil, I'd want them to start out at their original alignment and roleplay the struggle to change their very nature.

Dandu · Nov 19, 2012

I think the reason you can have a celestial turn into a devil is because the original devils are fallen celestials.

dragonfriend7738 · Nov 19, 2012

Dandu said:
I think the reason you can have a celestial turn into a devil is because the original devils are fallen celestials.

That and Devils are always looking for souls to corrupt, and a Celestial is the ultimate prize for such a scheme.

pemerton · Nov 19, 2012

Dandu said:
You know, evil people fall in love too.

Not self-evidently. At least, no self-evidently to everyone with whom the OP has discussed the question.

Evenglare said:
The initial question is flawed. Let me elaborate.

CE Medium outsider (chaotic, demon, evil, extraplanar)

There. A succubus is this. A the succubus wouldnt do ANY of those things mentioned in the original post.

I think there is a strong argument that this is correct - namely, that being evil precludes acting in the ways described for this succubus.

The basic issue here is that the SRD defines "evil" as "hurting, oppressing, and killing others" but doesn't offer any theory of when hurting and oppressing are permissible, nor any theory of the mental state necessary to make the infliction of harm wrongdoing.

There is the further, confusing, comment that

Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

This implies that the evil are those who inflict harm (hurting, oppressing or killing) willy-nilly, either whenever it is a suitable means to their personal goals ("convenience") or even as an end in itself ("sport or duty"). Given that nearly everyone at least sometimes inflicts harm out of convenience, or even as a sport (eg in a spiteful argument), the implication seems to be that the evil routinely inflict harm whenever it will serve as a means, and even adopts it as an end.

What does "love" mean to that sort of person?

Dozen · Nov 19, 2012

pemerton said:
This implies that the evil are those who inflict harm (hurting, oppressing or killing) willy-nilly, either whenever it is a suitable means to their personal goals ("convenience") or even as an end in itself ("sport or duty"). Given that nearly everyone at least sometimes inflicts harm out of convenience, or even as a sport (eg in a spiteful argument), the implication seems to be that the evil routinely inflict harm whenever it will serve as a means, and even adopts it as an end.

Don't ignore the 'without qualms' part. Being Evil does not in any way imply routinely inflicting harm, just the willingness to do so at any time and under most circumstances.

What does "love" mean to that sort of person?

What it does for everyone else. Love is a beautiful thing, but not a semi-magical unbreakable bond of care and compassion that's only rewarded to the best of the best. It's basically Nature's way to twist our own selfish, pleasure pursuing demeanor so we endure another being long enough to deliver and raise some kids, and if it lasts longer than that, hey, bonus points.
Mind, it's not as if you couldn't love someone selflessly; that is an overly cynical psych's opinion. The natural high that comes with it makes it harder, but it's possible. Yet it doesn't change the fact that love, along with everything we feel and do is for our own good by basis. To do something selfless, you have to actually try by fighting off the Neutrality(Or, in a demon's case, the Evil) coded into you, otherwise it's not going to happen. I think we both agree the Succubus didn't try. Everything considered, we can conclude she loved her husband... in the most selfish way possible.
Well... I guess it could be a lot worse, so... Yay? :heh:

Dordledum · Nov 23, 2012

just contemplate this: 2 serial killers love each other, but roam the land murdering wantonly. Would you say they were Chaotic Good?

You could make a CG succubus, but the fact that she is in love is no reason to qualify her as such.

Aaron L · Nov 24, 2012

I'd say that a succubus out for power and revenge or the death of a past love is very fittingly Chaotic Evil. The idea of a Demon actually falling in love with a mortal is a little iffy for me, but I guess you can say that's personal taste, and if he was sufficiently Chaotic and Evil he'd be on his way to becoming a Demon himself after he died, and she'd actually still essentially be performing her function as a Demon, ensuring his eventual Abyssal damnation by reinforcing his dedication to Chaos and Evil.

I'd imagine the succubus doing everything in her power to acquire the damned soul of her love to keep for herself. The love of a CE being (especially a Demon, a being literally MADE of Chaos and Evil) would be a love of possession and control, a very sick and unhealthy love but love nonetheless, and she would do everything in her power to possess his soul after he died. And she would seek to mold him into another Demon under her direct control (her love slave.)

Now this is just my opinion, but I personally don't see Outer Planar beings as having the same Free Will as Prime Material Plane mortals, as they are beings composed of pure Alignment, rather than of the Elements (like Material mortals are. PMP Mortals have Free Will because they have separate souls. Outsiders don't have souls, their entire beings are all one combined body/soul unit, composed entirely of their Alignment.) Thus everything she did would be inherently Chaotic and Evil, she wouldn't even want to act a different way (Demons act CE because they ARE CE, as in COMPOSED of CE). Unless she was corrupted by a powerful outside supernatural force. So I don't see her becoming Lawful without being corrupted by a supernatural power of another Alignment. If you wanted a succubus that was Chaotic Good (or Lawful Evil), in my opinion she would need to have been corrupted by a powerful force of either supernatural Good (or Law), at some point. Maybe a Good artifact, a Celestial being, or very powerful Good magic.

Though now that I think about it, their IS a rather important and influential literary precedent for a certain very famous Angel being corrupted by powerful emotion, so that could work just as well as supernatural corruption. But I still couldn't envision a Demon becoming either Lawful or Good because of her desire for vengeance over the death of her Chaotic Evil human love. In fact, I'd imagine her being quite happy that he was dead, once she had assumed control of his soul, because now he would be hers completely, to do with as she desired. Which is ultimately what love is, the desire for possession.

That's just my view, though.