Neonchameleon
Legend
I don't think Malediction Invokers have much in the way of non-damaging control effects.
Pros and Cons of going mainstream
I don't think Malediction Invokers have much in the way of non-damaging control effects.
Manbearcat
Legend
I just checked and you're correct. There are a few, but not enough to spread around in all the encounter power levels (which, of course, you don' need for hybrid).
Preservation might be a better route. However, I'm not sure it matters to be honest. I was just trying to find all the "Feedback" powers that hurt you in the Invoker line. They're a bit all over the place and don't require Malediction. The biggest problem is no At-Will power that is just either (i) a catch-22 with no direct damage or (ii) no damage and just a negative status effect or slide, etc.
As far as Encounters go, these are levels 1, 3 and 7 that are either (i) a catch-22 with no direct damage or (ii) no damage and just a negative status effect or slide, etc:
Whispers of Defeat
Symbol of the Broken Sword
Offering of Justice
Written in Fire
Death's Dread Whisper
As far as Dailies go, there are plenty about that are just negative status affects or summonings (therefore no direct damage).
Might just be best to multi-class Invoker and power swap a few invocations that harm you when you invoke their power. Between power swapping Cleric and Invoker, you should be able to find enough non-damaging powers and one or two that hurts you upon invoking it.
No... I'm admitting that, in the case you don't want Vancian magic? You have options. Let us try to find a version of 4e where Vancian casting exists. How about skill-based combat and casting? What about spell points?
Again. The flexibility of the OGL's material allows for the game to go in the path it wants.
I've played 4e. I've even run a few 4e games, including a 20 session campaign. The game, short of deciding to paint those shells, is not really able to go outside of its very specific, very focused nature.
Yes. As we all know Ikea allows you to take the handles off of this bureau, the shelving off of this bookcase, the structure of this TV stand...
I feel you're missing the point of a metaphor that everyone else is getting.
When they activate that magic item or ability they howl. Not exactly rocket science.
And that's like your opinion man.
Oh noes! Classes can do more or less than each other? Now, I understand that playing a character who doesn't automatically hurl fire or fart thunder as a fighter may be upsetting.
Some of us don't need that, and build functioning characters.
I've been in five different states in the time since 4e came out. I usually check out FLGS as I go through, and when I settle down I check out all available shops within driving range to see which will be my home shop.
I have seen 2 4e games posted on bulletin boards. Now, that may just be anecdotal so let us go to something that is observable; a simple check of PBP forums.
Now, I went to Myth-Weavers because it has the easiest board to search, and keeps track of activity and involvement. Green-Yellow-Red system, pretty easy to figure out. I cut out Red because it just becomes more of a landslide, but here are the numbers:
From Myth Weavers said:
Yep. Then they got a professional errata team to fix the glitches... Something not offered to 3.x. Which was then dealt with through... House rules? Like every other edition?
All of these things can be done with 3.x and perhaps an OGL sourcebook/simple house rules.
And it doesn't break the system.
So they got the stuff done right in previous editions. Got it.
If I need to change something, I can change it without worrying about starting a roll of dominoes. Yes.
Uhhuh.
When we disagree with a specific ruling, we can choose to alter it. The obsession with RAW is just silly.
Which is odd considering I'm one of three guys who I know who has run/runs 4e IRL, and about a dozen who run anything OTHER than 4e.
And, you know, the numbers.
Uhhuh.
And it gets in your craw. As I have explained, 4e does what it does... But it isn't anywhere near the coverage of 3x and the resultant d20 system.
So you're blaming 4e's failures on the economy? It's odd that OD&D took off with that whole recession thing going on.
Ahh, the 'take your ball and go home' style. Excellent! Like people who claim they will leave their country if X happens, it almost never happens.
And when it does no one mourns.
I see the beginnings of the neogrog forming. The obsession with beating on other 'impure' editions, the anger, the fear. Let it all flow.
But 4e has the most reverse grognards I have ever seen during my time in gaming... And I've seen quite a few major changes to other RPGs. You have your fun, but we don't find it intriguing... So you need to fight against it.
Again I used to be like you. Let it go.
Slainte,
-Loonook.
It's a bit tangential, and works at a more abstract level than you're looking for, I think, but are you familiar with the world and economy generation rules from Classic Traveller (found in Book 3, Book 6 and Book 7)?
Also, [MENTION=26473]The Shaman[/MENTION] (I think) no longer posts on this board, but used to talk about world and situation-generating mechancis for his Flashing Blades game. I don't know if those mechanics are found in Flashing Blades, though, or if The Shaman made them up himself.
But not in a form which is a legal PC build, as per the AD&D rules.
And also not legal.
At least as I understand it, you're not denying that earlier editions than 4e have the action resolution mechanics to handle the Grey Mouser, or a barbarian who roars to the heavens and is answered with thunder. You're noting that the PC build rules of those editions can't produce a Mouser, or a barbarian of the sort you describe.
Which is true of AD&D (unless your Mouser is an elven or half-elven F/M-U/T). And seems plausibly true of 3E.
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I find this a little hard to follow - are you talking about mechanics (PC build and action resolution being the main ones), story elements (what Dispater or Demogorgon may or may not be willing to agree to, for example), both, or something else that I'm missing?
I think it's fairly obvious that at a certain point many fantasy RPGers wanted to use fantasy RPGs to achieve a Dragonlance-ish heroic fantasy experience rather than a classic D&D dungeon crawling experience (whether in Tomb of Horrors and Hidden Shrine Advanced Squad Leader mode, or White Plume Mountain and Ghost Tower of Inverness freeform wackiness mode). In response to this, 2nd ed offered settings but no mechanics to support them. I think it is apparent that 2nd ed AD&D needs more jury-rigging of its PC build and action resolution mechanics if it is to work than (say) 4e does. The 2nd ed rulebooks come right out and tell the GM to suspend the mechanics for the sake of the story (in my own view the worst GMing advice of all time, but many people seem to like it).
From my (slightly distant) point of view 3E seems to have offered PC build rules and a veneer of action resolution to support heroic fantasy play - creating a superficial impression that "anything is possible" - but in the realisation suffers from numerous problems, most notoriously the dominance of AD&D-style "creative spellcasting" over other avenues of action resolution.
4e, on the other hand, is the first version of D&D designed to deliver a heroic fantasy story simply in virtue of following its mechanics. That is part of the indie-ness of 4e, and its relationship to "story now" gaming.
There is a question as to whether it succeeds at this or not. Some people find it fails because the combat is grindy rather than heroic. Others aren't interested in its particular flavour of heroic fantasy (typically because they find it too gonzo). But whether or not it succeeds or fails, it is clear about what is attemting. And it is something different from any other version of D&D.
Of course, for those who don't want the action resolution rules, in and of themselves, to deliver story via their application, the whole 4e project will be unwanted. These would be the same sorts of players who think that The Riddle of Steel would be great if not for its Spiritual Attributes mechanics, who can't see what The Burning Wheel offers that Runequest doesn't (after all, both a class-and-level-less, low(ish)-magic, skill-based games where combat is gritty and PC advancement is based on either doing or training), and who think that it's silly that a PC might perform with mechanical advantage in a particular situation just because the player of that PC is more invested in that situation.
But for those who like 4e and what it attempts, even if they disagree on how successful it has ultimately been, it makes no sense to regard it as a virtue that the GM has to house rule and fiat basic features of the system. If the whole point of the system is to deliver story by play, how is it anything but a failure for the GM to have to fiat it - GMs have been delivering stories by fiat ever since the first group suffered through someone's crappy railroad.
Story elements, on the other hand, are a completely different matter from mechanics. It's of the essence of a system like D&D that the content of the story - and hence the ultmate status of story elements like Demogorgon and Dispater - is not settled until actually produced via play. So a 4e GM who fiats the resolution engine in order to proudce outcomes that keep the fiction in conformity with canon and metaplot has (in my view) fundamentally misunderstood what the game is for.
Hence my puzzlement at, and objection to, the response to Chris Perkins's game that I posted upthread. In a 4e game, no one knows how paranoid Dispater really is, and how that will affect his behaviour, until the skill challenge has been played out. It turns out that, in Perkins's game, Dispater wasn't as unwilling to make deals as someone who had only read the backstory might think. That's "story now" for you!
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JamesonCourage
Adventurer
I am not familiar with it. I'm 27 years old, and got into official RPGs at around age 17, so just before 3.5 released. I haven't even seen those books in person. I love the sounds of rolling up a character, though! I'll comment on the "abstract" portion in a second.
I think he stopped posting, too. However, he used the Mythic - Game Master Emulator books a lot for random rolls. I made a system that's similar to that, which is very abstract in nature. It works well, too, so I'm glad you mentioned The Shaman. I was just curious if there was something more rules-intensive, or if things were basically GM fiat. I'm okay with GM fiat and abstract rolls for me to interpret, personally, but I'm still really interested in something more hard-coded. Thanks for the reply, pemerton. As always, play what you like
Manbearcat
Legend
Alright, I wanted to take a shot at this just for fun. I didn't include a race (or any of the features that would come with it) as you didn't outline it. I made the character level 16 to run it through its Paragon Features (you can make it considerably earlier...I just arbitrarily chose 16).
This build does the following:
- Gets a unicorn companion that actually does fight and aids the character and its companions with a <Healing Keyword> Encounter Power.
- Is a skirmisher rather than a front-liner. Has standard + 2 defense bonus against Opportunity Attacks and can augment that up 1/Encounter to probably + 6 or so (Rogue Multi-Class). If you go with Agile Escape (lvl 2 Rogue Utility), you'd have more battlefield mobility. Can remove movement impairing effects on self or others (Holy Celerity).
- Has the Background, Skills and Rituals to navigate the wilderness and do well more than contribute to a party's survival (complete stand in for a Ranger or Druid).
- Exudes Healing. Has both amazing Healing skill from mundane application in the field in combat (Combat Medic), mundane Ritual item creation (antivenoms, potions, poultices), and amazing mundane care abilities for the sick and afflicted (Herbalist + Rituals). Has amazing Divine Healing that is far, far beyond the standard for a Priest. What's more, through Love and Sacrifice (Domains), can suffer and sacrifice in the stead of others; further augmenting healing effects and allowing saves or removing afflictions - while taking damage and suffering afflictions.
- Can bring back people from the dead (Raise Dead) and in mere seconds (Combat Medic, Loving Sacrifice, Unexpected Return)
- Can do all of this while doing no physical damage to enemies that would contribute to them being dead.
Class: Cleric (Templar), Multiclass Rogue
Level: 16
Features: Channel Divinity <Healer's Mercy>, Healer's Lore, Healing Word, Ritual Casting
Background: Wilderness Guide - Nature
Theme: Fey Beast Tamer - Gain Unicorn Destrier Companion
Paragon Path: Compassionate Healer Paragon Path - All manner of powers and abilities that lets you augment your healing to others by your own vitality; spending surges in their stead, taking damage in their stead, taking damage to provide further HPs and defense bonuses, forcing weakened on your enemies when they damage your allies and taking the damage and conditions that your allies would take.
Feats: Loving Sacrifice <Channel Divinity>, Power of Love <Recovery Strike>, Pacifist Healer, Saving Grace, Restful Healing, Combat Medic, Sly Dodge (Rogue Multiclass), Defensive Mobility, Herbalist
Skills: Arcana, Bluff, Diplomacy, Heal, Nature, Religion
Rituals:
Nature - Antivenom, Pass Without Trace, Hunter's Blessing, Travel Sense
Create Campsite, Traveler's Camouflage, Tracker's Eye, Survivor's Preparation, Herbal Poultice, Snare, Speak with Nature, Call Wilderness Guide, Trailblaze
Heal - Woundpatch, Delay Affliction, Remove Affliction, Cure Disease, Raise Dead
Arcana/Religion - Purify Water, Brew Potion, Protection from Energy, Fantastic Recuperation
Powers
At-Will Attack: Astral Seal, Recovery Strike (Power of Love Augmented)
Encounter Attack: Hymn of Resurgence, Price of Violence, Remorse
Daily Attack: Consecrated Ground, Dismissal, Aura of Astral Radiance
Utility: Life Transference or Agile Footwork (Rogue), Holy Celerity, Word of Vigor, Unexpected Return
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Stormonu
Legend
What's not legal about the 1E build? Does he not meet the ability requirements for dual classing?
I was wondering the same myself, but not so much that I have actually wandered across the all-but impossible distance to my upstairs den where my RPG books are located...
Waiting to see evidence that I need to, that this isn't a claim born of a slight misunderstanding or lack of familiarity with the AD&D or 2Ed rules.
Waiting to see evidence that I need to, that this isn't a claim born of a slight misunderstanding or lack of familiarity with the AD&D or 2Ed rules.
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