3.5e to 4e conversions

Hi Krusty,

My players are finally 4e epic, having earned every inch of it from level 1 over the past year. Which means I'm starting to use some IH stuff, and converting it to 4e. I figured starting a thread on converting old stuff would be helpful.

But in general, how do you think strength score requirements should be brought into 4e? In particular, my players are about to obtain a large quantity of Orichalcum, right after stopping said large quantity from crashing into the planet, possibly splitting said planet apart in the process.

They're level 22, and no one has 25 Strength. They COULD get that much strength, but it'd be tricky. They'll NEVER have 115 strength, of course. How should it convert?

Fieari said:

Hi Krusty,

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Hey Fieari amigo!

apologies for the slow reply, had to work last night.

My players are finally 4e epic, having earned every inch of it from level 1 over the past year. Which means I'm starting to use some IH stuff, and converting it to 4e. I figured starting a thread on converting old stuff would be helpful.

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I should have converted the epic bestiary when 4E was released. I'm a bloody idiot.

But in general, how do you think strength score requirements should be brought into 4e? In particular, my players are about to obtain a large quantity of Orichalcum, right after stopping said large quantity from crashing into the planet, possibly splitting said planet apart in the process.

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When I was initially designing my 4E Immortal Tier, I developed something called Legendary [Ability Scores]. Unlike the 3E cosmic ability, this didn't double an ability score, but instead was like an Epic Destiny dependant upon your ability score, rather than your level. So you would get powers at:

[Ability Score] 21, 24, 27 and 30.

Rather than be based on Imperial measurements, these would be closer to Mythical benefits letting you do some game-bending things.

They're level 22, and no one has 25 Strength. They COULD get that much strength, but it'd be tricky. They'll NEVER have 115 strength, of course. How should it convert?

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Very interesting question, with no obvious answer.

I think the best way to handle Orichalcum for 4E is to redesign it from the ground up. 4E doesn't try to replicate real world physics in terms of damage (then again neither did 3E until I did it). Mechanically I think the game is going to break down if you start dealing more than double damage.

If we boost the flat damage of a weapon, then that will have a knock on effect when it comes to Encounter, Dailies and (Epic Tier) At Wills, since those are multipliers.

There seems no easy way of designing this. For balance it needs to be a multiplier, but then that messes up with the idea of designing weapons with fractions of orichalcum.

What we could do is say that you need 25 strength for the lowest fraction of orichalcum and then +5 for each fraction thereafter.

Meaning with 30 strength you would deal x2 damage (which seems fair).

Alternately we could kick that in at 21 strength and make that scale up every +3 (fitting in with my Legendary Ability Score idea above).

Meaning with 30 strength you would be dealing x4 damage.

These ideas overlap with virtual size categories a little either starting at 21 and every +3 or starting at 25 and every +5.

But I am still not convinced 4E should have virtual size categories, its pretty well balanced as is.

I need more time to think about this puzzle.

Hrm. I would be happy if every one of my players (except for the rogue) did double their current damage. I want to give them equipment to get there. Then I can stop halving monster HP.

One thing I've already thought of is "What makes Orichalcum cool?" And I think the answer is that it's really heavy, and crushes most any other material. Not cuts, like a light saber, but crushes. So I added a terrain destroying shockwave effect to the material, up to burst 12 for 100%, that makes difficult terrain (flavor only at this level, none of my players are at all hampered by difficult terrain, what with flight or teleportation or flat out terrain ignoring abilities) and knocks creatures down. Auto-sundering enemy armor might be cool as well. Add Knockback, perhaps?

Hey Fieari amigo,

(been working these past few nights and again tonight - hence the slow response).

On a related note I have a 'monster' in the Temple of Death pdf called the Thuggee Bodyguard which carries a ponderous weapon called the bell mace.

This weapon is incredibly heavy, and deals massive (above average) damage. But if the Thuggee Bodyguard misses with it, then he is dazed (or stunned if he rolls a '1'.) If he hits, he dazes (or stuns on a crit) while using the bell mace.

The idea of the trade-off might work for orichalcum weaponry too.

Here's a proposal. The idea is to simulate the strain of wielding something so heavy, with significant penalties. Orichalcum weapons must be enchanted with a weight-reducing spell. While the weight is reduced, the weapon acts purely as an adamantine weapon. However, with a minor action (encounter power?), the weight can be increased momentarily, increasing the base-weapon damage (and thus, can be multiplied by dailies and whatnot).

The strain of doing so is sufficient to drain your healing surges. The amount of surges needed is based on the number of size categories it would have simulated-- cumulative. So increasing your base damage 1 step is 1 healing surge. Increasing 2 steps is 3 (2+1) healing surges. Increasing 3 steps is 6 (3+2+1) healing surges. And so on. In addition, whether hitting or not, it will deal shockwave damage around the target equal to half the damage roll, for a burst area equal to the number of steps. After using this ability, you must use a standard, or perhaps a standard and a move action to reclaim your weapon.

I'd prefer if the "steps" increased the average damage by about 1 per die... you know, increasing the die type by one up to d12, but that raises the question of how to go above d12's and keep it even.

What do you think?

This attack over area idea... I added a variation to my Muhlatimic tinkering. Hope you don't mind.

Hey Fieari mate, don't know how I missed this post. Sorry about that. I had to work the 4th, 5th, 8th and 9th this past week but I almost always check the forums every day. Anyway...onto your idea.

Fieari said:

Here's a proposal. The idea is to simulate the strain of wielding something so heavy, with significant penalties. Orichalcum weapons must be enchanted with a weight-reducing spell. While the weight is reduced, the weapon acts purely as an adamantine weapon. However, with a minor action (encounter power?), the weight can be increased momentarily, increasing the base-weapon damage (and thus, can be multiplied by dailies and whatnot).

The strain of doing so is sufficient to drain your healing surges. The amount of surges needed is based on the number of size categories it would have simulated-- cumulative. So increasing your base damage 1 step is 1 healing surge. Increasing 2 steps is 3 (2+1) healing surges. Increasing 3 steps is 6 (3+2+1) healing surges. And so on. In addition, whether hitting or not, it will deal shockwave damage around the target equal to half the damage roll, for a burst area equal to the number of steps. After using this ability, you must use a standard, or perhaps a standard and a move action to reclaim your weapon.

I'd prefer if the "steps" increased the average damage by about 1 per die... you know, increasing the die type by one up to d12, but that raises the question of how to go above d12's and keep it even.

What do you think?

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Okay, some stuff I like, some I don't.

1. Not sure about the idea of mitigating the mass with magic. Wouldn't it just be easier to increase mass with magic on command rather than lower it? While I know anti-magic isn't prevailant in 4E, it seems that anyone in such a situation is losing the use of their weapon.

2. I like the idea of the blast radius being equal to the healing surges spent, but I am not so sure about the use of healing surges overall.

Solution

I think the solution lies within my Revised Fighter pdf. In that document, you could use the multiple attacks option at -2 per additional attacks (applied to all attacks that standard action).

With Orichalcum weapons all we need to do is apply a damage multiplier based (x2, x3, x4, x5, x6, x7, x8) on the original Orichalcum percentages with a -2 attack penalty for each increase in multiplier.

e.g. 0.19% Orichalcum weapons would have a x5 multiplier but have a -8 attack penalty.

On a miss you could say that...

EITHER (Downward Swing)

...the shockwave hits the ground and radiates 1 square for each point of multiplier. THIS is when the wielder loses a healing surge (since the weapon hits the ground).

The big problem here is weapon damage on the shockwave. With the area increasing I think it should only be equal to the normal weapon damage (before orichalcum multipliers).

OR (Any other swing)

...the wielder is dazed until the end of their next turn.

So maybe

STR 21 = 0.0004%, x2 Dmg, -2 Penalty to hit, 2 sq radius burst wave on (downward swing) miss
STR 24 = 0.003%, x3 Dmg, -4 Penalty to hit, 3 sq radius burst wave
STR 27 = 0.024%, x4 Dmg, -6 Penalty to hit, 4 sq radius burst wave
STR 30 = 0.19%, x5 Dmg, -8 Penalty to hit, 5 sq radius burst wave
STR 33 = 1.5%, x6 Dmg, -10 Penalty to hit, 6 sq radius burst wave
STR 36 = 12.5%, x7 Dmg, -12 Penalty to hit, 7 sq radius burst wave
STR 39 = 100%, x8 Dmg, -14 Penalty to hit, 8 sq radius burst wave

What do you think?

I may flesh this out a bit more and use it as an article on my website over the weekend.

...actually, just thinking about it I believe we might be able to get away with the original damage modifiers as follows:

STR 21 = 0.0004%, x1.5 Dmg, -1 Penalty to hit, 1 sq radius burst wave on (downward swing) miss
STR 24 = 0.003%, x2 Dmg, -2 Penalty to hit, 2 sq radius burst wave
STR 27 = 0.024%, x3 Dmg, -4 Penalty to hit, 3 sq radius burst wave
STR 30 = 0.19%, x4 Dmg, -6 Penalty to hit, 4 sq radius burst wave
STR 33 = 1.5%, x6 Dmg, -10 Penalty to hit, 6 sq radius burst wave
STR 36 = 12.5%, x8 Dmg, -14 Penalty to hit, 8 sq radius burst wave
STR 39 = 100%, x12 Dmg, -22 Penalty to hit, 12 sq radius burst wave

Also instead of directly attacking the opponent, the wielder might want to try a Close Blast attack by deliberately striking the ground.

The problem I have with penalties to hit is that they are too severe in 4th edition, particularly to those people who would thematically be best off with an orichalcum weapon. The rogue in my group has the to-hit required to utilize a 100% pure orichalcum blade, because he's optimized so that he should never miss on an attack, and merely rolls for crits. Orichalcum seems silly for his character, since he has very little strength, but he could do it.

Meanwhile, my group's tank, buffed up with a strength score of 24 right now, would REALLY suffer from even a -2 to hit, and would effectively need to crit just to hit on some of the higher percentages, but he's the one that thematically SHOULD be wielding weapons forged from a dying star.

I do like the new strength chart though. Those numbers may just be attainable with homebrew magical gear, and he can already utilize 0.003%...


On a separate note, I'm going to need an akalich soon, and am brainstorming how to get rid of absolutes while still keeping things impressive.

Hey Fieari amigo!

Fieari said:

The problem I have with penalties to hit is that they are too severe in 4th edition, particularly to those people who would thematically be best off with an orichalcum weapon. The rogue in my group has the to-hit required to utilize a 100% pure orichalcum blade, because he's optimized so that he should never miss on an attack, and merely rolls for crits. Orichalcum seems silly for his character, since he has very little strength, but he could do it.

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Yes but how the heck would he meet the strength pre-reqs?

Meanwhile, my group's tank, buffed up with a strength score of 24 right now, would REALLY suffer from even a -2 to hit, and would effectively need to crit just to hit on some of the higher percentages, but he's the one that thematically SHOULD be wielding weapons forged from a dying star.

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I think the method of integrating orichalcum into 4E is a difficult one because of the level cap and the lack of damage variance.

If this was 3E then you would need to put some serious investment into upgrading strength just to get the weaker percentages. With 4E a fighter will just max out strength upgrades, so really there is no specific investment in using orichalcum. That means we need a mitigating factor (like a to hit penalty).

I do like the new strength chart though. Those numbers may just be attainable with homebrew magical gear, and he can already utilize 0.003%...

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Another one of the problems facing us is the strength pre-reqs. They need to be downsized to be attainable.

On a separate note, I'm going to need an akalich soon, and am brainstorming how to get rid of absolutes while still keeping things impressive.

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I think the way to keep 4E dangerous is by (on certain attacks) substituting flat damage for something like "damage equal to the target's max hit point total" or "damage equal to the target's bloodied total".