Converting monsters from Tales From The Infinite Staircase

freyar said:

I just don't see the point in having such a complicated Mirror Magic ability complete with a table of what mirror magic spell levels work where in the Outlands. It's overkill for what should be a pretty basic creature, especially since mirror magic is "a very minor sort of utility-centered magic craft."

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The description of mirror magic as a "minor" magic craft doesn't match very well with the actual scenario, which includes all kinds of impressive magical devices. Ranging from mirror-charms that kidnap people, summon monsters, create magical duplicates à la a mirror of opposition and create a self-repairing artifact able to create copies of every book in existence and store them in an infinitely large extradimensional space.

If that's minor magic, what would the Kamerel consider major magic!

As for the table, all spellcasting in the Outlands is affected by the Spire's counter-magical nature to a degree that varies with level and distance from the Spire.

The proposal boils down to just using the standard "Impeded Magic" trait for mirror magic (Spellcraft DC 15+level) instead of the Spellcraft DC 35 the Outlands normally applies.

freyar said:

I wouldn't write such a complicated ability for it.

But what I don't really understand is why you don't like my proposal in post 20, which basically does the same thing your proposal does but with a lot less extra text.

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Shall I list the ways.

The biggest problem is that Kamerel are incapable of casting "normal" spells. The adventure states quite clearly they're incapable of understanding them.

I prefer having them cast spells that operate like arcane magic, but are specifically not arcane magic.

The proposed "Kamerel are able to cast arcane ? spells up to X level in the Outlands" makes no allowance for Impeded Magic Spellcraft DCs, which I think should apply to Mirror Magic, since it appears to be restricted to some extent by the Spire.

Speaking of said restriction, the adventure says the Kamerel can't cast any spells within 100 miles of the spire (just like any other spellcaster). Your proposal would allow them to cast spells "up to X level" even if they were standing directly beneath the Spire.

By the way, what's happened to Oryan77?

They're the one who asked for these conversions, so it would be helpful to get some participation!

Good question, where is Oryan77?

Well, the magic in the library was created by a kamerel who was clearly the greatest kamerel caster ever, but that's a bit of a digression.

Here are my problems with a separate magic system: we'd have to invent a whole new class for kamerel casters and other than a few new spells given for the kamerel (and which we're told to treat as special abilities), the kamerel casters in the adventure use standard spells. But I can go with a few modifications to my proposal as long as we don't explicitly create a whole new subsystem, like psionics, just for this monster.

Mirror Magic (Ex): Kamerel have developed a distinct system of arcane magic that functions more easily in the Outlands than normal magic. Rather than needing to succeed at a DC 35 Spellcraft check to cast a spell in the Outlands, a kamerel need succeed only at a DC equal to 15+ the spell level (as if the Outlands had the Impeded Magic trait). As a trade-off, kamerel are unable to use spell-completion or spell-trigger items created by other creatures. Mirror magic, like normal magic, does not function at all within 100 miles of the Spire.


Does that work better for you?

freyar said:

Good question, where is Oryan77?

Well, the magic in the library was created by a kamerel who was clearly the greatest kamerel caster ever, but that's a bit of a digression.

Here are my problems with a separate magic system: we'd have to invent a whole new class for kamerel casters and other than a few new spells given for the kamerel (and which we're told to treat as special abilities), the kamerel casters in the adventure use standard spells. But I can go with a few modifications to my proposal as long as we don't explicitly create a whole new subsystem, like psionics, just for this monster.

Mirror Magic (Ex): Kamerel have developed a distinct system of arcane magic that functions more easily in the Outlands than normal magic. Rather than needing to succeed at a DC 35 Spellcraft check to cast a spell in the Outlands, a kamerel need succeed only at a DC equal to 15+ the spell level (as if the Outlands had the Impeded Magic trait). As a trade-off, kamerel are unable to use spell-completion or spell-trigger items created by other creatures. Mirror magic, like normal magic, does not function at all within 100 miles of the Spire.

Does that work better for you?

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Yes, that's an acceptable compromise. Mechanically it's almost the same as my proposal.

We can relegate the "cannot use normal magic" aspect of the Kamerel to the flavor text - it's plausible that it's a result of their xenophobia rather than an actual innate flaw in the Kamerel physiology/psychology/metaphysics.

They still have some unique spells (like the light/darkness dual-aspect spell), but those are simple enough to write up.

I'd add a few minor tweaks to the wording to reflect the fact that the DC 35 Spellcraft check is because the Outlands has a special version of the Impeded Magic trait...

Mirror Magic (Ex): Kamerel have developed a distinct system of arcane magic that functions more easily in the Outlands than normal magic. Rather than needing to succeed at a DC 35 Spellcraft check to cast an impeded spell in the Outlands, a kamerel need succeed only at a DC equal to 15+ the spell level (as if the Outlands had the standard Impeded Magic trait). As a trade-off, kamerel are unable to use spell-completion or spell-trigger items created by other creatures. Mirror magic, like normal magic, does not function at all within 100 miles of the Spire.

Cleon said:

Mirror Magic (Ex): Kamerel have developed a distinct system of arcane magic that functions more easily in the Outlands than normal magic. Rather than needing to succeed at a DC 35 Spellcraft check to cast an impeded spell in the Outlands, a kamerel need succeed only at a DC equal to 15+ the spell level (as if the Outlands had the standard Impeded Magic trait). As a trade-off, kamerel are unable to use spell-completion or spell-trigger items created by other creatures. Mirror magic, like normal magic, does not function at all within 100 miles of the Spire.

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I've just noticed that the 3.5 SRD Impeded Magic trait has a Spellcraft check with DC 20 + spell level, not the DC 15 + spell level of the 3.0 Manual of the Planes I was cribbing off.

We'd better use that DC instead:

Mirror Magic (Ex): Kamerel have developed a distinct system of arcane magic that functions more easily in the Outlands than normal magic. Rather than needing to succeed at a DC 35 Spellcraft check to cast an impeded spell in the Outlands, a kamerel need succeed only at a DC equal to 20 plus the level of the spell (as if the Outlands had the standard Impeded Magic trait). As a trade-off, kamerel are unable to use spell-completion or spell-trigger items created by other creatures. Mirror magic, like normal magic, does not function at all within 100 miles of the Spire.

freyar said:

Here are my problems with a separate magic system: we'd have to invent a whole new class for kamerel casters and other than a few new spells given for the kamerel (and which we're told to treat as special abilities), the kamerel casters in the adventure use standard spells. But I can go with a few modifications to my proposal as long as we don't explicitly create a whole new subsystem, like psionics, just for this monster.

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I still would prefer it if kamerel magic and "normal magic" are mutually unintelligible, since that's explicitly stated in the original adventure. It doesn't have to be a separate system mechanically, just that kamerel can't understand non-kamerel arcane spells and non-kamerel can't comprehend mirror magic.

That only requires one sentence, it's hardly writing out a whole system.

Hmm... maybe instead of barring non-kamerel completely from casting mirror magic spells, we could require a DC 35 Spellcraft check instead, the same as being "Outlands Impeded"? That'd be a strong discouragement from using kamerel magic, especially if it applies on all planes.

Come to think of it, if it's a two-way street we should also say non-kamerel are unable to use spell-completion or spell-trigger items created by kamerel.

I'd be willing to allow a UMD check for a kamerel to use a normal magic item (and vica versa).

Another thing I'm wondering about is how kamerel magic works outside the Outlands. Since they don't leave their home plane it's not something we really need to consider.

Well, the current proposal (with your edits) has mirror magic and normal magic as mutually unintelligible, but I think it would be better to leave that to flavor text.

I wouldn't think mirror magic necessarily has any problems outside the Outlands. After all, the magic of the library can reach throughout the planes. I'm personally ambivalent about the UMD checks you suggest; the idea makes some sense, but it makes Mirror Magic more complex.

freyar said:

Well, the current proposal (with your edits) has mirror magic and normal magic as mutually unintelligible, but I think it would be better to leave that to flavor text.

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My "putting it in flavor text" was only if we have the kamerel not use normal magic for psychological reasons. If that applied, there'd be nothing mechanically stopping them from using it, or non-kamerel from using mirror magic.

If the two forms of magic are literally unintelligible to the practitioners of the other form, I think it's important to make that explicit in the special quality.

Something like this:

Mirror Magic (Ex): Kamerel have developed a distinct system of arcane magic that functions more easily in the Outlands than normal magic. Rather than needing to succeed at a DC 35 Spellcraft check to cast an impeded spell in the Outlands, a kamerel need succeed only at a DC equal to 20 plus the level of the spell (as if the Outlands had the standard Impeded Magic trait). Mirror magic, like normal magic, does not function at all within 100 miles of the Spire.

Kamerel are unable to use spell-completion or spell-trigger items created by other creatures, and cannot learn or decipher standard arcane spells (since they can only comprehend their own mirror magic system). Contrariwise, non-kamerel cannot learn or decipher mirror magic spells or use spell-completion or spell-trigger items created by kamerel.

freyar said:

I wouldn't think mirror magic necessarily has any problems outside the Outlands. After all, the magic of the library can reach throughout the planes. I'm personally ambivalent about the UMD checks you suggest; the idea makes some sense, but it makes Mirror Magic more complex.

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I'm inclined to leave it out too, it was more of a thought-experiment.

Cleon said:

By the way, what's happened to Oryan77?

They're the one who asked for these conversions, so it would be helpful to get some participation!

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I'm always poking around here to see if I could be of any use. You guys know much more about this stuff than I do and I think anything I try to contribute will be shot down due to my inexperience at monster creation. But I will give my input whenever I think it might be useful.

I just recently had a job transition, so I haven't had much time to do anything lately. But I am still around!

Cleon said:

I still would prefer it if kamerel magic and "normal magic" are mutually unintelligible, since that's explicitly stated in the original adventure. It doesn't have to be a separate system mechanically, just that kamerel can't understand non-kamerel arcane spells and non-kamerel can't comprehend mirror magic.

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What about using the True Neutral alignment system as part of the reason that makes Kamerel magic different from normal magic? Their magic could be pulled from the alignment of the Outlands itself. The Kamerel could have figured out how to "borrow" from the magic that the Outlands "steals" and convert it into an alternate form of arcane magic that is only accessible to beings of true neutral alignment. No other neutral beings have studied this magic because they never knew the Kamerel existed. Since Kamerel refuse to associate with other beings, they will never teach it to any other true neutral beings.

So their magic is different, without being mechanically different.