D&D 5E Coming Around on the "Not D&D" D&D Next Train

Jeff Carlsen

Adventurer
Aye, agreed. 3d6 is pretty brutal in d20-esque stat layout though. In AD&D 2e it was workable since you only started getting serious negs around -7 and below (if I remember correctly). They went middle of the road with this one, it's still very very hard to have more than one or two 18s, and quite easy to have at least a couple bad penalties. IRL my friends have a good mix of ups & downs, things they are good at and things we all suck at. I really don't see why our "heros" can't at least have some variety to them.

I saw way too many 20 str or 20 dex characters at level 1 using point buy last go around to ever play a game like that again. I want D&D to feel closer to Game of Thrones in brutality than, say, Merlin. And real life middle ages was far, far, faaaaar more brutal than GoT, and probably most D&D campaigns I've seen. Let alone WWII, obviously. I just can't relate to a playing a fantasy setting about monsters and heroes that's less dangerous than the one we already live in.

Honestly, it makes no difference in a d20 system whether you start a 11 or at 20. Bonuses and DCs are all linear. A -2 modifier versus a DC 10 is the same as a +3 modifier versus DC 15. As a designer, you just have to pick where you want the scale to start. 3d6 represents normal people, which the game should support. 4d6 drop the lowest represents heroes. Maximum score is 18 without a racial bonus.
 

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Orius

Legend
I haven't been following Next all that closely, but it feels like WotC is trying to do too much with it and please too many people with it. I'm not sure that can succeed at all.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
I think that's part of it. It's something with a D20 chassis, with classes and skills, hit points, and as much as I have come to dislike it generally, Vancian magic. If I'm going to "play D&D," I might as well play D&D, if not in its "purest" form, in its most recognizable form.

I guess I'm partially saying I finally get why people always say, "If you don't want to play D&D, play something else, but quit messing with my D&D." The thread about D&D being a toolbox vs. setting got me thinking about it. If I'm going to play D&D, by golly, why don't I just play D&D and enjoy it for its "D&D-ness," instead of playing D&D while griping about the 85 things I wish D&D did differently.

And I think 5e has a chance to really do that.

Very well said!
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
Honestly, it makes no difference in a d20 system whether you start a 11 or at 20. Bonuses and DCs are all linear. A -2 modifier versus a DC 10 is the same as a +3 modifier versus DC 15. As a designer, you just have to pick where you want the scale to start. 3d6 represents normal people, which the game should support. 4d6 drop the lowest represents heroes. Maximum score is 18 without a racial bonus.
It matters because the numbers are being compared to other players and monsters.

If all the players have between 8 and 12 in a stat then a DC 10 can be accomplished by the entire group with a +/- 5% difference. if the group has between 4 and 20 then a DC 10 now has a 40% difference between the lowest and highest chance of success.

Plus, the DM doesn't always set those numbers. If you pull a monster out of the Monster Manual who has a 20 AC, then the game has set the difficulty of success. Your stat matters a LOT on your chance of success.
 

Jeff Carlsen

Adventurer
It matters because the numbers are being compared to other players and monsters.

If all the players have between 8 and 12 in a stat then a DC 10 can be accomplished by the entire group with a +/- 5% difference. if the group has between 4 and 20 then a DC 10 now has a 40% difference between the lowest and highest chance of success.

Plus, the DM doesn't always set those numbers. If you pull a monster out of the Monster Manual who has a 20 AC, then the game has set the difficulty of success. Your stat matters a LOT on your chance of success.

While all these things are true, none of them prevent the designers from shifting the baseline of the game. They did this already when they decided to remove racial penalties and have classes grant ability score bonuses. The latter, I don't oppose. All I want is for humans to have no racial modifiers with a maximum score of 18, and everything else built around that. If they aren't going to do that, then drop ability scores entirely. Proper tradition is the only reason to keep them.
 

Dausuul

Legend
I'm still amazed how many people loved Saga & spit on 4e.

I have some ideas on why this happened, but on reflection it's probably not a good idea to get into them, lest this thread be derailed into an edition war. But the fact that it did happen should answer your question about why 5E is not an overhauled 4E. 4E lost a lot of fans. How many can be recovered by 5E remains to be seen, but clearly the damage was great enough that Wizards feels it's necessary to try and repair it, and that can't be done by building on top of 4E.

I know that I, personally, would not have been on board with a "polished 4E" version of D&D. When 5E was announced, I'd had my fill of 4E and was tinkering with a homebrewed game designed to resemble BD&D, but with a lot of cleaned-up mechanics and stronger class balance. If Wizards had continued down the 4E path, I would have fleshed out that game and adopted it as my own personal D&D edition. Instead, I jumped on the 5E bandwagon (and have since been amused to see how many of my own ideas mirror what Wizards came up with for the 5E core; bounded accuracy and a focus on straight-up ability checks being the most obvious examples).
 

Gorgoroth

Banned
Banned
I personally don't feel like the shift from 2e to 3e was very jarring, but some of my favorite DMs still prefer 2e over 3e (let alone 4e), because of the inherent complexity in 3e feats and skills. 4e solved a few things but it felt too different. What I'm saying is, going from THACO to D20 was a lot less changing the core feel of the game for me (putting aside feats and skills for a moment), than keeping roughly that same math chassis and overhauling virtually everything else in the game, way too much. It really feels like you can't adjudicate 4e on the fly, and quickly, without seriously nerfing or boosting one or another classes' powers or abilities or feats in the game. E.g. we had our DM in 4e try to limit the number of opportunity attacks you could take in a round to nerf Snarling Wolf Stance because it was, indeed OP. He tied Dex to the number of OAs you could do, not realizing how much this hurt my character who was part defender (a paladin, at that), and needed it, vs the rogue who had like 22 dex and was unaffected. So what I'm saying is, if you make a hard and fast house rule, you could easily break the entire functioning of a class, because he didn't realize at the time the side effects of nerfing one power in a roundabout way were much worse than explicitly limiting that power specifically.

The subtleties of immediate vs opportunity actions were lost on many other players and DMs, of course OAs were always confusing people since the start of 3e, so that's not an edition-specific comment. Simple rules that have good expression in the narrative sense without requiring constant rules lawyering is what I like the most about Next, and in that sense and on that basis alone, it has a good chance of being the best D&D yet. I.e. the D&D ruleset coming into its own after 40 years of ironing out the bugs.

What the players appear to be saying, from what I can tell reading the feedback : Over-Complexity is a bug. Slow combat is a bug. Unrealistic martials are a bug. Too much power for wizards is a bug, as is them running out of spells and bringing out their crossbow. Clerics being OP generally is a bug. Fighters being boring or weak-sauce at higher levels is a bug. Stat / number inflation / arms races for its own sake is a bug. Magic items not feeling special or rare, or being expected in the base math, is a bug. Having godlike stats without magic or supernatural influence is a bug. Having arbitrary duration spells or abilities such as "lasts until the end of the encounter" (when is that, exactly? when the DM says? what if I want my fly spell to continue and not rest?....) is a huge bug.

That said, there's a huge contingent of people for whom powers and AEDU were not bugs, but features. Those were very controversial and IMO don't add to the feeling of playing D&D, thus they should be out. For good. Thankfully the design team appears to be hitting most of the right notes and actually listening to the feedback of the majority of D&D fans, rather than the vocal minority who are a) not game designers, b) hate everything about every edition of D&D except for power cards, or c) just have a bunch of confused and contradictory notions such as making the game only two classes, or removing the d20 entirely. I've seen so much silliness out there I think part of a game designer's job in evaluating feedback is figuring out who the feedback is coming from and what their biases are.

If they spew nothing but venom for the majority of D&D rules's history : IGNORE THEM ENTIRELY. No game designer will tell potential clients to consider playing a different game, but I will.
 

Iosue

Legend
Well, Gorgoroth, thanks for turning a relatively positive thread about 5e into another edition-war battleground with an entirely unnecessary and uncalled-for broadside against 4e and those who enjoy playing it.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
Well, Gorgoroth, thanks for turning a relatively positive thread about 5e into another edition-war battleground with an entirely unnecessary and uncalled-for broadside against 4e and those who enjoy playing it.

That's not fair. I think [MENTION=6674889]Gorgoroth[/MENTION] list of "bugs" applies to both 3e and 4e equally.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
That's not fair. I think [MENTION=6674889]Gorgoroth[/MENTION] list of "bugs" applies to both 3e and 4e equally.
Based on past posting history, probably not. :)

But to get back to the OP, I think [MENTION=85870]innerdude[/MENTION] is happy to have a "D&D" that isn't any previous "D&D".
 

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