D&D 5E Should the next edition of D&D promote more equality?

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The Choice

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Oh boy, an artist paints a deductive woman, and somehow all women are "nothing but objects". Where have I heard this one before. Alllll the way back to Victorian england.

The battle over modesty is long over. Guess what side won? If you think it's immoral to see a woman like a sexual plaything, ever, in any context, I guess you've never had the pleasure of being lusted after as a male? I wonder, would you tell women they shouldn't ogle firemen or David Beckham or Brad Pitt? Seems awfully petty, to life in such narrow confines of victimhood.

Back in Victorian England, the social and moral mores of the era were largely dictated by men. Nowadays, in various areas and domains within the artistic milieu, we see a movement towards a more representative and inclusive image of women in "commercial art" (mainstream movies, comic books, video games, etc.) that is largely led by women.

Previously cited exemples include the Hawkeye Initiative, but I'll add the largely negative feedback to the perceived rape-scene in the latest Tomb Raider game, the outrage at some of the portrayal of women in the latest iteration of the Exalted game, and the "questionable" content produced by one specific author for a few gaming companies (I'll avoid naming names in an effort to not dredge up year-old internet drama).

All of those things? They aren't censorship, they aren't about modesty. It's not a temperance movement for RPGs or games in general. It's about being a !#$&* human being that recognizes the existence of other human beings with feelings around us. None of the people who have posted in this thread are trying to shame women into covering up, either in real life or in the pages of RPG game books. What I'm trying to articulate is that in the context of a dungeon exploration adventure game where danger lurks around every corner, female characters should wear appropriate protective gear.
 

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TanithT

First Post
So I repeat - would you be okay with it if the books were full of naked dudes?

Not just 'full of naked dudes', but the only dudes ever shown in character or concept art have to be wearing silly stripper clothes and posing in sexy ways, showing their hardons. All of them, all the time, even in situations where it is incredibly stupid and out of place for them to be sexual. If you're looking for some decent art of a male fighter in actual armor, you're out of luck because all you can find is mostly naked guys with nipple rings and cute tassels on their ding-dongs skipping around, posing frivolously and looking completely useless and ridiculous as fighters.

Are you okay with a game like this? If not, I guess you're a prude.

Edit to make it clear that I'm not seriously calling anyone a prude, just showing the faulty logic of thinking someone is because they are annoyed at having their entire gender perpetually portrayed as stupid and completely useless in an actual adventure, and not having reasonable options for character art that is not stupid and trivialized for other people's amusement at the expense of making your character look idiotic and suicidal. Being annoyed at this has absolutely nothing to do with prudery, or with sex at all for that matter.
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Yes, I am serious. Prudery is the surface manifestation of deeply ingrained bigotry. And I maintain, some of the biggest prudes are also the worst hypocrites with their own skeletons. My wisdom over the years has taught me to ignore liars completely.


Ladies and gentlemen,

Please allow me to make something clear: Arguments of the form, "If you don't agree with me, it is due to some mental or character flaw on your part," are dismissive and rude. Rule #1 of EN World is, "Keep it civil." Calling folks prudes, bigots, and hypocrites (even by implication) is not something the moderation staff considers civil.

Furthermore, let me remind everyone - we lost the threadbanning tool in the site hack. That means that if we feel we need to remove someone from a thread, we will have to give you a tempban from the site. Therefore, I would strongly suggest people consider the tone of their rhetoric before posting in this thread.

I hope that makes things clear. If it doesn't, please e-mail or send a private message to the moderator of your choice to discuss it. Thanks for your time and attention - we now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.

 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
You seem to be saying that any artwork that's created for commercial purposes isn't actually art at all. I fundamentally disagree - illustrations, even if made on commission, are artwork. Da Vinci is currently believed to have painted the Mona Lisa on commission from Francesco del Giocondo (who wanted a portrait of his wife, Lisa) - does that mean that it's not art?

I believe that any creative endeavor, regardless of the circumstances of its genesis, is speech (though to be clear, how understandable that speech is is something else again).

Yes and no, it depends on which definition of art we are speaking of. will go deeper as soon as I find a working kboard

Edit: Ok there are many meanings for the word art


  • As shorthand for pictorial illustrations. In that sense, yes comercial art is art
  • As in the clasiical sense of mastery of the technique, virtuosity of execution, an extreme sense of aesthetics, yes, comercial art could potentially be a masterpiece (art)
  • As a piece of speech reflecting the convictions of the painter and seeking social change and breaking of paradigms, no way unless the illustrator is being unprofesional -not necesarilly a bad thing, also notice the Gioconda wasn't delivered to the customer instead it was inherited by Leonardo's last assistant o patron I can't really remember-or managed to work for a company sharing those same concerns.

Basically my point is Illustrations aren't speech on themselves. Unless the author is pretty clever or very incompetent at rendering the needs of the customer.
 
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urLordy

First Post
If I said that I like my fantasy to be "believable" or have "verisimilitude", and that it's more realistic (and therefore desireable) to me that female fighters are adventuring with practical gear and armour, would that placate the libertarian/anti-political/whatnot detractions?

Or if I framed it from the perspective of rules optimization such that partial armour reduces a character's armour class and that character is more likely to be slaughtered in combat, which would not be desireable for any PC or NPC, whether illustrated or in actual game play.

So then the person who likes fantasy stories where women are running half-naked but without an increased likelihood of being killed are doing so exactly because it's fantasy and anything is possible. But then most (I assume most, without statistical evidence, shall we have a poll?) say: I like my fantasy stories where dragons can fly and magic exists but warlords don't shout people back to life (cheap shot!) and women don't run around half-naked. And then it's not a question of censorship or politics, but just: Which story do I prefer?
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I think we need to stop using that silly word "censorship" in this context. We do not have the power to censor WotC's (or anyone else's) art department, so that's merely a strawman, and disingeuous at best. This isn't about censorship, it's about making the right choices.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Oh boy, an artist paints a deductive woman, and somehow all women are "nothing but objects". Where have I heard this one before. Alllll the way back to Victorian england.

I think you meant "seductive". A deductive woman would be wearing a deerstalker cap and telling Watson that it is elementary*...

The point here is, however, not about a single image - reducing it to this is making a strawman, I'm afraid. The real question is about the body of art used in books, in aggregate. When large chunks of the art in a book are cheesecake, or overly sexualized for the context, that begins to say something to the viewers, whether you like it or not.

Edit: Adding a chunk...

Gorgototh said:
If you think it's immoral to see a woman like a sexual plaything, ever, in any context, I guess you've never had the pleasure of being lusted after as a male?

This thread is not about "ever, in any context". It is about GAMING PRODUCTS. Keep it in scope.

And that crack about never being lusted after? That's being insulting, and making it personal. Allow me to suggest that you not go there again.




*Yes, yes, I know. Holmes' work is more correctly described as inductive, rather than deductive. Kill the joke, why don't ya?
 
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TanithT

First Post
The battle over modesty is long over. Guess what side won? If you think it's immoral to see a woman like a sexual plaything, ever, in any context, I guess you've never had the pleasure of being lusted after as a male? I wonder, would you tell women they shouldn't ogle firemen or David Beckham or Brad Pitt? Seems awfully petty, to life in such narrow confines of victimhood.

Treating any human being like a thing is not particularly moral, no. There are exceptions for adults who mutually consent to act out a dehumanization/objectification fetish, but in general, viewing and treating human beings as things is not cool. Did you know it is possible to express sexual desire for someone without dehumanizing them, or is that really a necessary part of the process for you?

Being annoyed because you have a hard time finding any representation for your character that does not depict her as suicidally stupid and ineffective in combat has nothing whatsoever to do with 'modesty'. It has to do with not wanting to be made ridiculous for other people's viewing pleasure. Wearing lingerie into combat is ridiculous. It is stupid. I don't know anyone who likes being perpetually portrayed as stupid or appreciates having a hard time finding any visual representations of their gender and character type that are not stupid.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Yes. What is immoral is not pictures of naked people (at least, no one in this thread ha asserted that as far as I can tell). What is troubling is that certain artists, and their publishers, seem incapable of depicting (and perhaps conceiving?) of women in their fiction as anything but sexualised objects of male desire.

It's not a question of capability - there's no reliable way of reading the creator's intent, let alone their abilities, from what they've created. To say that you see it that way says more about you (I'm using the generalized "you" here) rather than them.

I'm not suppressing creative expression. I'm (i) telling them they're not very creative, and (ii) telling them that I don't particularly care fo what they're creating. That's not suppression.

I've previously stated that personal opinions on something are not acts of suppression. I'm pointing out that if you hold that there's a positive duty (I'm paraphrasing here) "to portray women asexually unless the context has a sexual dimension" (something that I find much too ambiguous), then that's going to run afoul of a negative duty to "not suppress creative expression."

To be fair, so long as one holds that positive duty only in regards to themselves (e.g. the work you create, and no others), there wouldn't be a conflict. It's when you start applying that duty to the work done by others that you'd likely have a problem.

I'm not talking about mesages the artist may be trying to communicate - we're not talking Michelangelo or Gaugin here, we're talking about fantasy illustrations.

You seem to be trying to indicate a qualitative difference here, which is a completely subjective realm where art is concerned. Who the artists are or what their particular nature is is, I believe, immaterial.

As far as the PHB is concerned - the back of the book says "The world needs heroes", and the subtitle on the front cover says "Rules for playnig Arcane, Divine and Martial characters". (I'm paraphrasing from memory here, but I think not very loosely.) Given that, those figures on the cover are heroes, the heroes the books gives you rules for playing. Are they approaching a place or leaving it? I don't know, and don't especially care - unless that place is a cocktail party, why is she wearing that dress?

The place could very well be a cocktal party; plenty of adventures have a social component, wherein such attire would (presumably) be appropriate. Or any of a thousand other explanations. Even if we take your presumption at face value (that the meta-contextual elements are good for contextual evaluation of what's happening), that doesn't say anything specific regarding the characters or their situation.

Even suppose she was an enemy mage, why is she wearing that outfit? I don't care if the artist's conception of that character is that she is a seductive flirt who always wears minimal, revealing clothing - that just pushes the issue back one step, to a question of why this allegedly professional illustrator doesn't have any more nuanced conceptions of women in his mental palette. ("He" is Wayne Reynolds for both the PHB and the DMG2 cover.)

Again, this strikes me as your opinion here (e.g. what's "nuanced" and what's not). Likewise, it's not the artist's conception that matters - the viewer can draw virtually any conclusion from what's being presented, and all of them are equally valid. You're questioning his credentials ("allegedly professional") is purely because you don't care for what you see.

To be clear - the women in these pictures are not real people. They are the creations of the artists who draw them. If those artists can't conceive of women and feminine personalities except in these sexualised terms, that tells me nothing about real women, but potentially quite a bit about those artists.

Again, that's one way of looking at it. The entire idea of characterization is to hold realistic qualities to fictitious characters; beyond that, it's simply a question of how much the art in question supplies that can be used for that purpose (which will also be something of a personal question, though it seems fairly self-evident that still images will give us less than, say, text). Beyond that, you're going back to assigning intent to the creators (e.g. their ability to conceive of something).

The question is rhetorical. Let me flip it around into an assertion: suppose you are correct, that the artist has drawn the woman arching her back and projecting her breasts because he is depicting her having just stumbled and regained her balance; then I assert that there is no good reason to depict that scene on the cover of the DMG2. I mean, presumably she urinates too, but I haven't yet seen any RPG go there except for FATAL, and even it held off as far as its artwork (rather than text) was concerned.

That's just another question of personal interpretation regarding what constitutes a "good" reason, something which I don't see as having any value in a debate since it's going to necessarily devolve into a matter of personal aethetics. Now, we can certainly talk about the marketing potential of such imagery, but that's a different discussion, regarding demographic research and sales projections, etc.

This is what WotC has market researchers for.

See above; the issue of marketing is certainly a worthy topic of discussion, but it's not the debate we're having (largely because it involves a lot of information that we're not privy to).

For all I know, WotC have worked out that many women won't buy their gamebooks anyway, and many of the men who buy their books will only do so while they contain hypersexualised illustrations of women. (Though I personally would be surprised if that was so. Even for those who enjoy a bit of fantasy soft-porn, I'd be surprised if it was a major determinant in purchasing decisions.)

This entire paragraph can be boiled down to "I have suspicions, but I don't know for certain." That's fine, which is another reason why I think the issue of relevance to marketing is tangential to what we're discussing.

I don't understand why you think that it is permissible to make such decisions without regard to moral considerations, though. I cannot think of a single mainstream moral philosopher, deontologist or not, who would agree with you on that point.

Then I would suggest that you need to study a great deal more moral philosophy, of any stripe.

I'm simply saying that there are some actions that don't have a moral dimension to them. It doesn't matter, morally, if I choose vanilla or chocolate ice cream. It doesn't matter, morally, if I choose to listen to the radio or watch television. It doesn't matter, morally, if I choose to paint a picture of a sailboat or a bowl of fruit...or anything else that I paint on the canvas.

It's permissible to make those decisions without considering a moral dimension because any virtue injected into those actions is, by definition, above and beyond the call of duty (e.g. it's not immoral if you fail to act virtuously there). There are times when it's not "bad" to not do the most good you can (e.g. go home instead of volunteering).

For backing, I refer you to a bibliography of Tasioulas that I found via google (though it's a bit out of date): http://philpapers.org/s/John Tasioulas.

As to your suggsetion that I wasn't at his paper: I've never made any secret of the fact that I'm an academic lawyer and philospher. I go to many papers - it's part of my job. Tasioulas's paper (delivered at Melbourne University on April 12th) was one such. (If you're wondering what he was doing in Melbourne - he's from here. He's a graduate of Melbourne University.)

I'm not questioning his identity, or your profession. I'm saying that if you want to cite his answering a specific question as an authority for your position, show that. Don't just say "I was there when it happened."

By "legal ethics" I assume you mean sometrhing like "lawyers' professional ethics". I didn't mention that. I refereed to criminal law theory. When I think of mainstream criminal law theory I think of John Gardner, Antony Duff, Andrew Ashworth, Victor Tadros and the like (Tasioulsas has written on this stuff too). All take the view that it is the aim of a criminal justice system to track moral responsibility and liability to punishment. If it didn't, in their view, it would be radically illegitimate. (Of course there are rival theories of the criminal justice system which see it very differently - eg Durkheim or Foucault. In English-speaking philosohy I wouldn't call these mainstream, however.)

That's also quite different from deontological ethics, though there are points of intersection (e.g. the presence of absence of intent). That said, they're also still different methods of moral philosophy. The aforementioned difference in beliefs regarding the degree of consequences as a determinant of morality when judging an action is one such example. The best statement you can make there is that the two are related schools of thought, but that's true for virtually any system of moral philosophy.

This isn't true. For intance, if an action is a killing, then it is necessarily the case that one of its consequences is a death. There is no "question mark". If an action is a lie, then one of its consequences is the assertion, and hence the communicative defence, of a falsehood. Again, there is no "question mark".

You're confusing a lack of specificity in the action for a necessity on calculating the consequences in order to make a determination. When you define a category of action that broadly, it's understandable that you'd think that you needed to look elsewhere in order to more narrowly determine just what sort of action (and hence how moral) it was. The issue there is simply not setting your actions quite so broadly (e.g. hence the difference between "killing" and "murder").

You seem to be confusing "results" with "contingent downstream consequences", and therefore confusing a rejection of consequentialism with a rejection of the relevance to value of all results of action. I can thinkof no contemporary or historical moral philosopher who agrees with you on this point - even if a philospher like Socrates thinks that everything turns on intention, it is still intention with respect to an action the character of which is undertsood in part by those results which are internal to it (such as the internal relationship between killings and deaths).

You're falling into a consequentialist trap here, which is understandable given where you admitted you're coming from in approaching this question, but still makes the mistake of conflating various "types" of consequences, with some being "contingent" parts of the action itself in an attempt to reconcile the difference between them. Personally, I disagree with that particular philosophy, as I find it to be disingenuous at best (e.g. "consequences don't matter, except when they do").

I think there's a pretty strong argument, in fact, that reference to results is one of the main ways of individuating actions (given that we don't have epistemic access to the internal processes that produce our muscual movements, and in any event the moral significance of something like my moving my finger turns very heavily on external considerations, like the fact that it is siting on a trigger and the fact that I am perceiving someone and hoping to kill them with my gun).

Again, I disagree. The consequences of an action, whether you consider them "contingent" or not, don't define the nature of the act itself. Now, you can make a case that there's doubt as to what the act actually was, but that's a different question altogether.
 

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