D&D 5E D&D Next Approximate Release Date?

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
And the idea that the differences between 1e and 2e are smaller than the differences between 3e and 3.5e is also arguable. This is part of why I'd said no edition had done that 15 year trick. You don't get to start glomming them together as you see fit and claim it is really one edition as you see fit.
 

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hbarsquared

Quantum Chronomancer
I'm going to jump in before reading past Page 2 of the thread. I just wanted to mention that, perhaps, online/app tools may not be nearly as necessary for the D&D Next set of rules, especially in comparison to 4e. Yes, it would likely be useful for a complex, Advanced game, but if you jump in with some Basic rules with a group for the weekend we won't need an online suite to calculate everything for us!

Think about it.

Next is shaping up, to me at least and the group of newbie friends I introduce it to, to be intuitive and newbie-friendly. If we don't have complex, app-necessary math, do we truly need an app for that?

Perhaps I'm old-school, backwards-thinking, stuck in the past. Or maybe "apps" are a 15-year fad that disappear by 2020. Who knows? Either way, I see Next as being able to function independent of mobile apps or online tools. Not a bad thing to have them, of course, but if they do not exist at launch, I would not be nearly as disappointed as I was at the launch of 4e without online tools

Anyone feel me?
 
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GX.Sigma

Adventurer
Next is shaping up, to me at least and the group of newbie friends I introduce it to, to be intuitive and newbie-friendly. If we don't have complex, app-necessary math, do we truly need an app for that?
Exactly. Most of my players don't even look at the documents.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I'm going to jump in before reading past Page 2 of the thread. I just wanted to mention that, perhaps, online/app tools may not be nearly as necessary for the D&D Next set of rules, especially in comparison to 4e. Yes, it would likely be useful for a complex, Advanced game, but if you jump in with some Basic rules with a group for the weekend we won't need an online suite to calculate everything for us!

Think about it.

Next is shaping up, to me at least and the group of newbie friends I introduce it to, to be intuitive and newbie-friendly. If we don't have complex, app-necessary math, do we truly need an app for that?

Perhaps I'm old-school, backwards-thinking, stuck in the past. Or maybe "apps" are a 15-year fad that disappear by 2020. Who knows? Either way, I see Next as being able to function independent of mobile apps or online tools. Not a bad thing to have them, of course, but if they do not exist at launch, I would not be nearly as disappointed as I was at the launch of 4e without online tools

Anyone feel me?

Nope. 4E at its start was no more difficult or easy to create characters for (math included) than any previous edition, in my opinion. They didn't have the Character Builder to start with, and quite honestly, it wasn't necessary anyway.

When they did release it however... it was a godsend, because it just saved time. We now didn't HAVE to do the math. And more importantly... we could make many more characters (with correct math) in a much shorter span of time. And the last important piece was that it put all the information together in one location, which also saved us the time from having to flip back and forth through all different books to find what we wanted. So those people who owned many books could always have their info at their fingertips.

But if you just wanted to play a simple game using just the PH... no CB was necessary or required.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
Nope. 4E at its start was no more difficult or easy to create characters for (math included) than any previous edition, in my opinion. They didn't have the Character Builder to start with, and quite honestly, it wasn't necessary anyway.
It was more difficult because you needed to look through more things and make more choices. Purely due to that, it was "more difficult".

When I made up a 2e fighter, for instance, I'd roll stats and hp, buy equipment and write down THAC0, AC, HP, and saving throws, bonus to hit and damage(which was easy because it was your strength mod) and be done. Average time to finish about 5 minutes.

When making up a 4e character you need to do all the same work as a 2e character but you also need to pick a class feature, pick 2 at wills, an encounter power, a daily power, and a feat. You need to calculate attack bonuses and damage separately for each of your powers plus your basic attack. Instead of just looking up your saving throws and writing them down you need to get your bonuses from your race and class as well as any feat bonuses and stat bonuses and add them all together.

All that stuff makes it harder. Especially when you have to consider every power available to you and every feat available to you. Average time to finish an hour or 2 for the people in our group. We had one player who said that if he didn't have at least a week to consider all his choices he would refuse to make up a character. That was WITH the character builder available.

But if you just wanted to play a simple game using just the PH... no CB was necessary or required.
It wasn't required in the same way you can do so fairly advanced math without a calculator. But you don't want to. Even restricted to only the PHB choices I found it so much easier to consider my choices by being able to quickly flip through my power options and restricting the list of feats to only ones I qualify for.
 

Zoombaba

First Post
I just made a Two-weapon fighting Ranger from the 4e Player's Handbook with my 11 year old son. His first character ever, straight out of the book, no CB. 2 1/2 hours.

Furthermore, at the game table, he was on top of the rules much better than many of the kids we were playing with, and he was still highly confused.

I think us 30-year gamers under-estimated how complicated the game has gotten. It really is too complicated for newbies.
 

Hussar

Legend
It was more difficult because you needed to look through more things and make more choices. Purely due to that, it was "more difficult".

When I made up a 2e fighter, for instance, I'd roll stats and hp, buy equipment and write down THAC0, AC, HP, and saving throws, bonus to hit and damage(which was easy because it was your strength mod) and be done. Average time to finish about 5 minutes.

You missed a couple of steps there, although, to be fair, they were optional, but IMO, very widely used - proficiencies and weapon specialization. That that that added a whole lot of time, but, it did add some.

When making up a 4e character you need to do all the same work as a 2e character but you also need to pick a class feature, pick 2 at wills, an encounter power, a daily power, and a feat. You need to calculate attack bonuses and damage separately for each of your powers plus your basic attack. Instead of just looking up your saving throws and writing them down you need to get your bonuses from your race and class as well as any feat bonuses and stat bonuses and add them all together.

But, let's be fair here. You're comparing the easiest 2e character to make to 4e characters, all of which are about the same difficulty. Compare your 2e wizard or cleric and things start to look pretty much the same. Or a 2e thief where you had to spend your percentage points on your skills, modify those skills for the armor and race of the character and note down a number of special abilities.

Although, why are you calculating the attack bonuses separately for each power? Virtually all powers, with few exceptions will use the same stat and have the same attack bonus. Damage will vary, but, that's noted in the power. Saving throws? Fair enough. That will take longer.

All that stuff makes it harder. Especially when you have to consider every power available to you and every feat available to you. Average time to finish an hour or 2 for the people in our group. We had one player who said that if he didn't have at least a week to consider all his choices he would refuse to make up a character. That was WITH the character builder available.

Yes, but, let's not get too deep into the idiosyncrasies of your group. Using PHB only, which is what you're doing for 2e as well, I cannot possibly see how it can take 2 hours to make a character in 4e. That's ludicrous. I mean, it's spelled out in detailed steps in the PHB. Follow the steps and you're done.

Now, if you're using fifteen different source books, fair enough. But, that's not edition dependent. Make your 2e fighter using the Complete Fighter and various other 2e splats and see how long it takes.

It wasn't required in the same way you can do so fairly advanced math without a calculator. But you don't want to. Even restricted to only the PHB choices I found it so much easier to consider my choices by being able to quickly flip through my power options and restricting the list of feats to only ones I qualify for.

Advanced math? What advanced math? Adding two or three numbers together? Sure, the CB makes it easier, no one will argue that. But, it's hardly necessary.
 

Iosue

Legend
I think it's also largely a matter of practice. I can make a TSR D&D character in 10-15 minutes, because I made dozens of them. I know where in the book to check for things, I've got the process down in my head -- it's just a matter of execution. However, when I started my recent B/X campaign, we used the first hour just on chargen, which was something of a shock. But my players hadn't played B/X in years, if ever, and were much more used to WotC editions. So they went through the process very deliberately, learning as they went along.

If you have a 4e group that regularly makes characters by pen and paper, after a few go-rounds they're going to have that <expletive> down pat. They're going to a few steps ahead in their minds; e.g., have their saves largely figured when distributing points to ability scores. They probably already have some feats pre-selected before they actually get to the point of selecting them.

Another consideration is level. The difference in complexity at 1st level is not so great, but the gap does widen as you go up in level. And while I can only speak for my own experience, both 4e groups I've played with have a tendency to start with higher level characters. A TSR D&D 1st level wizard vs. a 4e 1st level wizard – not so different. A TSR 6th level wizard vs. a 4e 6th level wizard – IMO there's a significant time and energy difference there. I stress, though, that I do not mean this as a criticism of 4e. The ease of TSR-era characters is a by-product of off-loading much of the rules and adjudication load onto the DM, and relying heavily on fictional positioning on the players' side. 4e by design put much more of the rules and adjudication load onto the rules themselves, and chargen is designed to give players lots of options for character design and optimization. Both rule-sets are working as intended within their respective design paradigms.
 

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