How to avoid ridiculous player character builds

Jacob Marley

Adventurer
Good to hear that others are running sandboxes successfully, too!

Actually, there are quite a few of us here who run sandbox-style campaigns!

1E restricted players to merely four classes and just look at the variety of play styles it engendered in players. Less can really be more. It's a game of imagination.

1st Edition actually had 5 classes; monk was a separate class, not a subclass (PHB, page 13). In addition, there were the five subclasses, Bards in Appendix II, and dual classing/multiclassing. So there was a little more mechanical variety than merely four classes. :p

Though I do agree with your broader point that it is a game of imagination and restrictions do not necessarily inhibit that.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Elf Witch

First Post
Good to hear that others are running sandboxes successfully, too!

Wizards, fighters and druids are *supposed* to be in the same group, they are complementary, helping to cover for the inherent weaknesses in each class with a strength of their own. As for core classes being perceived as being somehow boring, they're merely wrappers for a set of skills and abilities that the player can customise. I'll stick my neck out here and say that anybody bored with the core classes can get some variation from the Miniature's handbook (e.g. Favored Soul instead of Cleric). After that, though, that kind of player is really out on their own. They are probably bored of fighting kobolds, too, bored of dragons, bored of dungeons, bored of collecting treasure, winning battles and saving the world. Good players take a character concept that doesn't have to be expressed mechanically and make their characters interesting. 1E restricted players to merely four classes and just look at the variety of play styles it engendered in players. Less can really be more. It's a game of imagination.

That is not really a fair judgement on why people multiclass. Less is not always better and having imagination can be why you choose to multiclass. I sometimes multiclass and it is not so I can be more powerful it is usually because of role playing and trying to try a character that will give be more role playing opportunities. In one game I played in it was a small group and the DM had told us that sorcerer's are burned at the stake sometimes or puniashed in other ways by the powerful wizard guilds who did not like the new magic flowing unchecked through certain people. So after talking to the DM I played a sorcerer/wizard. We started at first level and we split the classes so I was both at the beginning of the game. Anyone has ever looked at it the combo is not overpowered and no I was not planning on taking a prestige class.

It fit the campaign style which was full of political intrigue and less combat. I had a blast working hard to avoid anyone finding out I was a sorcerer. I did fine until my third required test at the wizard guild. These tests are designed in a way to weed out weak wizards by killing them. I was about to die in desperation I threw a sorcerer spell. Whoops they look at your spell book and know exactly what spells you know. The game got really interesting after that.

In a game I was running a player was playing a fighter he got seventh level and died while he was waiting to be raised he had an interesting conversation with the god St Cuthbert. When he was raised he found that he sometimes got prophetic dreams from the god after about two levels he came to me and said that he wanted to add paladin to his character because to him him that made role playing sense.

My experience has shown me that often multiclass gives players a chance to really tailor a character concept and often is not always planned at the start of the game.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
Know your players. Best way to guarantee you'll never see uber-builds in your game.
Control loot. It's rough but it's gotta be done. Having inter-dimensional shops selling everything will get out of hand quickly.

Limiting material is a two way street, by the core books, some base classes can still be very overpowered compared to others. Allowing lots of material can help balance classes that by core are very weak.

And of course, retain the right to proof builds.
 

Dozen

First Post
Good to hear that others are running sandboxes successfully, too!
^^
As for core classes being perceived as being somehow boring, they're merely wrappers for a set of skills and abilities that the player can customise. I'll stick my neck out here and say that anybody bored with the core classes can get some variation from the Miniature's handbook (e.g. Favored Soul instead of Cleric)...

Good heavens, no. I'd never dare suggest core classes are boring! I meant the lack of material is restrictive of artistic tastes. More books equal more options, more options equal more style. Dangerous with full casters, binders and psions abound, admittably - not as such with less powerful classes, all of which can adopt to a miriad of roles.

Wizards, fighters and druids are *supposed* to be in the same group, they are complementary, helping to cover for the inherent weaknesses in each class with a strength of their own.
Annnd that's just silly. I mean, it's completely true, sure, but doesn't address the real issue. My woes go out to the imbalance between classes. I'm not degrading the boon of a hearty Fighter who fights alongside my Wizard through whatever shenanigans we or the DM can think of. He, on the contrary, may feel uncomfortable being a one-hit pony while I defy conventional physics as a Standard Action. Damn, I'm three mid-level spellslots and a single multiclass dip(I begrudgingly admit banning this option to achieve balance was a good idea, even if I don't like it myself) away from taking his place entirely for a whole encounter. Book limits will never change that. In fact, the opposite happens, as you banned material intended for Fighters along with material intended for Wizards, and let's be frank, out of those two the Fighters draw the short straw.
There are other, more 'beefy' melee classes out there who don't need to optimize the Nine Hells out of themselves to avoid the sense of inadequacy. On the flipside, there are just as many weak magic users to go hand-in-hand with Fighters and their buds. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's only beneficial to consider inherent power factors when attempting to run a balanced campaign. Me on the other hand? I prefer to watch and smile as my players tear the multiverse into confetti. I can see the appeal to both playstyles, however.

Good players take a character concept that doesn't have to be expressed mechanically and make their characters interesting.
Why shouldn't you when you can choose both without losing anything, though? I wouldn't waste the extra mile you can go to stylize your PCs for the world. I came up an illusionist build who, while comparably a bad Wizard, can fill in for the Barbarian, and, to an extent, the Cleric, and better at being a Rogue than an actual Rogue, just for fun. It's not gamebreaking, none such is possible without at least a couple of books, and I formed the build based on the character concept(A once selfish, sneaky, somewhat insane mage who aquired divine powers through a quest to save his soul, to grossly simplify it), not the other way around.

Realize, a campaign will never be broken unless a player wants to break it. Surely your table has no such intentions, since otherwise you wouldn't play together. Why limit their options?
 
Last edited:

My experience has shown me that often multiclass gives players a chance to really tailor a character concept and often is not always planned at the start of the game.

I think that multi-classing, like most anything in D&D, should be viewed through the prism of intent. Of the player and the game that the DM wants to run.

Multi-classing to fulfill a character concept or because of some sort of roleplaying experience is, for me, awesome. The more depth a PC has the easier it is for me to tailor situations in the game for them. The more enjoyment I get out of playing with that group/PC/campaign.

However, multi-classing because "At level X, I get Cool Power Y and the rest of the class is garbage so I'll be taking Class Z...." has always left a bad taste in my mouth. This isn't to imply that such a game style is wrong, it's just not one that works for me.
 

Matthias

Explorer
Here's what I'm doing in my campaign and so far it's kept player character power levels about balanced:

Restrict players to the Player Handbook, Rules Compendium and Miniatures Handbook ONLY. This applies to classes, feats, skills, spells (basically everything).
Disallow all forms of multi-classing; pick your class and when you level up in this class only.
Placed absolutely no magical shops into the campaign world.
The amount of money that shops and market stalls and merchants can offer for any magical item is a tiny fraction of what the magical item is worth.

I would recommend taking such steps in your own campaigns to keep things balanced.

Here's my advice, which might be repeated in this thread but that's OK.

Don't worry so much about whether something is unbalanced. You as the GM certainly have the right to your ban hammer, but it's the players' game too. When you heavy-handedly take away the players' toys you are telling them their fun is less important than yours.

That being said, every group should be on the same page as far as what material should be available and what system details to use. While the GM has complete freedom to decide on the material and the system, the players all have complete freedom to decide whether they want to play the GM's game. If your players are OK with three books, no multiclassing, and no magic shops, hey, go for it. But if they are used to a lot more variety in class selection, character creation, and weekly sales on bags of holding, then you are going to have to convince them why your preferences will ultimately make the game more fun (or at least stop it from being less fun). Worse, players may not always tell you they don't like how you're running things; they may just decide they have better things to do on game night and stop showing up. Some players may show up just because a bad game is better than no game at all, but that's not a situation you should rely on if you want to take the position of it's your way or the highway. You have to anticipate what they players will enjoy, and make the game fun for them as well as yourself.

When a player has hit upon a tactic or optimization that is pretty effective at trashing your monsters, villains, etc., don't look upon it as a bad thing. Players are supposed to try to win. It's what they do. Restricting or punishing a player who comes up with a good tactic or combo is like punishing your pet rat when it manages to beat the little maze you dropped it into, just a little faster than you expected.

When a player invents a good way to beat my obstacles and traps, or wants to try something really inventive and kind of rules bendy, in my experience I've found it's much more agreeable let the player do it and say "OK, you can do 'A' but first you have to do 'B' " ... or set a really high DC for task 'A' if you think it would be really difficult for an average adventurer to succeed. Or, "you can try to do 'A' but there may be bad stuff 'B' and 'C'." Don't just say, "You can't and it's impossible," if there is no law of nature or game rule which specifically forbids it. E.G. ignoring gravity Road Runner style or learning the Wish spell when you're only a 1st level wizard.

Furthermore, if a player decides he likes his pet tactic and uses it for everything, you as the GM are obliged to do your research on how an NPC or monster might counter such a tactic. If you have faith in the ability of the game designers to put together a well-designed system, then you can be confident there is some way to make the player's "golden hammer" less useful, outright useless, or even a disadvantage.

It is a misnomer to think of player characters as inherently "powerful" or "weak". Such definitions are meaningless when you realize that the most buffed-out 5th level PC one can possibly legally create can still be destroyed if you confront it with an opponent that is arbitrarily unbeatable. Because you have complete control over how powerful your monsters and NPC can be, you can always dig one out from a book (or create one yourself) that is capable of putting the buffed-out PC in his place. Now, I am not saying that is the right thing for you to do in every case, or even in most cases. This is just an illustration of the basic truth that power and invincibility is always relative. If you have a bunch of players who all want to build what they think are "super powered" characters, let them do it! Let them push the boundaries of what a beginning-level character is capable of, and let them max everything out. But when they start facing Big Bad Epic Monsters that PCs of their nominal level probably have no business messing with, they may realize the futility of trying to "game" the system.

Finally, please bear in mind I am talking mainly about tactics and combos that take advantage of rules synergies or special exceptions written into the system, and which is in keeping with the spirit of the original intent of the rules, that let PCs do a little bit more than what would normally be expected from a character of their level or class. I am NOT talking about creating invincible characters by exploiting loopholes, abusing broken or poorly-wood game rules, and completely ignoring the original intent of the game designers. That is a whole other gray area of semi-cheating and metagaming which no GM should feel obliged to agree to.
 

kingius

First Post
I am NOT talking about creating invincible characters by exploiting loopholes, abusing broken or poorly-wood game rules, and completely ignoring the original intent of the game designers

Specifically, this is what I mean by a 'ridiculous' character. Steps that restrict the sourcebooks to a more manageable level (in this case, PHB and Miniatures Handbook) go a long way towards preventing this. As does no multiclassing at all. Almost every ridiculous build that I've come across involves multiclassing and involves classes which are from various expansion source books, hence you'll be able to see how effective the measures I take are at keeping things 'balanced'. Every DM develops their own ways of dealing with this issue.
 

Regardless of what you choose to do, just make sure you're up front with your players at the very beginning. Surprising the players later in the game may be detrimental to your game's health.
 

Dandu

First Post
Specifically, this is what I mean by a 'ridiculous' character. Steps that restrict the sourcebooks to a more manageable level (in this case, PHB and Miniatures Handbook) go a long way towards preventing this. As does no multiclassing at all. Almost every ridiculous build that I've come across involves multiclassing and involves classes which are from various expansion source books, hence you'll be able to see how effective the measures I take are at keeping things 'balanced'.
Not really.
 


Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top