Legends & Lore: A Bit More on Feats

Vyvyan Basterd

Adventurer
If they're going to go the route of "triad-feats" I think they should shoot for each feat having an effect on the three pillars.

HEAVY ARMOR WARRIOR

Prerequisite: Heavy Armor Proficiency.
Combat: The character gains damage reduction from slashing, piercing and bludgeon sources equal to his Constitution modifier while wearing heavy armor.
Exploration: The amount of time before fatigue sets in while wearing heavy armor is significantly reduced <insert actual rule text here>.
Interaction: The warrior is an imposing sight and the character receives a +2 bonus to intimidate lesser-armored foes and a +2 bonus in attemts at diplomacy with knightly types.

Obviously, much more work would need to be put in to clean this up/align it with the ruleset/divorce it a bit more from specific fiction (possibly).
 

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JamesonCourage

Adventurer
If they're going to go the route of "triad-feats" I think they should shoot for each feat having an effect on the three pillars.

HEAVY ARMOR WARRIOR

Prerequisite: Heavy Armor Proficiency.
Combat: The character gains damage reduction from slashing, piercing and bludgeon sources equal to his Constitution modifier while wearing heavy armor.
Exploration: The amount of time before fatigue sets in while wearing heavy armor is significantly reduced <insert actual rule text here>.
Interaction: The warrior is an imposing sight and the character receives a +2 bonus to intimidate lesser-armored foes and a +2 bonus in attemts at diplomacy with knightly types.

Obviously, much more work would need to be put in to clean this up/align it with the ruleset/divorce it a bit more from specific fiction (possibly).
I would like this so much more than the feats that were in the article. If you're going to cram that many effects into each feat, your way isn't a bad way to do it, in my opinion. As always, play what you like :)
 

Squidmaster

First Post
If they're going to go the route of "triad-feats" I think they should shoot for each feat having an effect on the three pillars.

HEAVY ARMOR WARRIOR

Prerequisite: Heavy Armor Proficiency.
Combat: The character gains damage reduction from slashing, piercing and bludgeon sources equal to his Constitution modifier while wearing heavy armor.
Exploration: The amount of time before fatigue sets in while wearing heavy armor is significantly reduced <insert actual rule text here>.
Interaction: The warrior is an imposing sight and the character receives a +2 bonus to intimidate lesser-armored foes and a +2 bonus in attemts at diplomacy with knightly types.

I think you're onto something here.
 

mlund

First Post
This works for me. I like the grouping because, oddly, it permits more customization.

No, I don't mean customization for the players. I mean customization for the Desingers and Dungeon Masters.

Here's the problem with a purely ala carte feats system like 3rd and 4th edition had: the only way they managed to integrate single abilities with above-the-curve strength for a one-off ability came from prerequisites. Sometimes it was an off-type ability score requirement, but more often it was a Feat Chain, making a character muddle through a pile of gimpy levels before a pay-off. Other times it just required massive over-commitment to a fixed path with no deviation. Once a feat was published with a prerequisite that was that. Later feats couldn't help you get to Spring Attack or Great Cleave without text that looked like Erratum or a hack.

Now the multiple abilities that compose a feat don't have to be balanced individually against one anothe; instead the packages as a whole just need to come out in the wash. You don't have to carry weak prerequisites through level after level. You get the co-requisite abilities all at once. Additionally, any Core Rules, Module, Adventure or DM home brew design can come with a new feat that uses one or more abilities found in other feats in a new combination. The Design Space is open without having to hedge against min-maxing on the level of individual powers / abilities.

This also finally puts the pieces together with regards to the idea of prestige classes being offered through Feats. These kind of packages feel like they could carry a small prestige class (5 level ones in 3.X) while you could chain two such feats to forge a large one with something like "Adept" and "Master" status in the discipline or order in question (like 10 level prestige classes in 3.X).

- Marty Lund
 

Warbringer

Explorer
If they're going to go the route of "triad-feats" I think they should shoot for each feat having an effect on the three pillars.

HEAVY ARMOR WARRIOR

Prerequisite: Heavy Armor Proficiency.
Combat: The character gains damage reduction from slashing, piercing and bludgeon sources equal to his Constitution modifier while wearing heavy armor.
Exploration: The amount of time before fatigue sets in while wearing heavy armor is significantly reduced <insert actual rule text here>.
Interaction: The warrior is an imposing sight and the character receives a +2 bonus to intimidate lesser-armored foes and a +2 bonus in attemts at diplomacy with knightly types.

Obviously, much more work would need to be put in to clean this up/align it with the ruleset/divorce it a bit more from specific fiction (possibly).

Nice idea, and for tables that don't have balanced play across the pillars, players will probably default to stat increase.

I'd tweet this direct to mearls ...( in less than 140 char of course :)
 

Li Shenron

Legend
Additionally, any Core Rules, Module, Adventure or DM home brew design can come with a new feat that uses one or more abilities found in other feats in a new combination. The Design Space is open without having to hedge against min-maxing on the level of individual powers / abilities.

This reminds me of the design space filled with feats that granted +2/+2 bonuses to a combination of two skills in the 3.5 era, and how we all loved that...
 

Ainamacar

Adventurer
This reminds me of the design space filled with feats that granted +2/+2 bonuses to a combination of two skills in the 3.5 era, and how we all loved that...

I think the major issue there isn't really the design space as such, but that the +2/+2 feats are incredibly sterile, and even "spiritually" worse than feats which are sterile in only a single way. It almost feels a little insulting they didn't just make a feat that grants +2 to any two different skills, with a little boilerplate to make sure one can't stack such things endlessly.

I think the proficiencies will be freebies in a lot of feats, rather than proper features. I don't give it much mechanical weight, anyway. You only need heavy armor proficiency once, from any source, and the balance implications are usually minimal -- more about flavor than raw power since the game is designed to be balanced whether one is wearing light, medium, or heavy armor. In any case, proficiencies are perfect grist for a downtime training system, as you guys have already noted, and putting it in feats could be more of a convenience.

Personally, the feats I most like are the ones that define a new way to approach play, although a strong thematic hook is always nice and usually complementary. I like Vyvyan Basterd's approach to making feats generally address more than one pillar in some way, as long as we don't follow that principle to the point of requiring absurd mental acrobatics on every feat. With these thoughts in mind, my first draft of a "heavy armor" feat might look like this:

ARMORER

Prerequisite: Medium Armor Proficiency.
Benefits: You gain proficiency with Heavy Armor. Whenever you take slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning damage you can choose to reduce that damage by an amount up to your Constitution modifier and apply it to your equipped medium or heavy armor instead. You can repair normal wear-and-tear (including damage caused by this feat) on a single piece of armor during a short rest, and also adjust its apparent condition (from pristine to banged-up) without affecting its functionality. A carefully chosen appearance may grant a +2 bonus to certain ability checks during interactions with other creatures. Your comfort in armor of various conditions grants you <some rule for reducing or eliminating fatigue from armor, probably related to Constitution.>

This would rely on a simple item damage mechanic, although in short encounters tracking could probably be handwaved. I like the implied story that you are strategically allowing the armor itself to be banged-up, and have learned to endure without loss of functionality a level of discomfort (per hit) given by your Constitution. The story is also more-or-less cohesive over the different pillars. The total amount of reduced damage in an encounter (or some other time period) can be determined by the armor rather than the Con modifier, but having high Con lets one use the power more flexibly and faster. In long fights there might not be much difference in total damage mitigated (it eventually saturates), but in short fights higher Con is definitely better. This feat incentivizes characters to find very sturdy armor, which might introduce tradeoffs related to materials/enchantments/etc. that other characters don't consider.

Anyway, my 2 cents.
 
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Doug McCrae

Legend
An optional rule to ensure PCs are capable in all three pillars is desirable, but I don't like the idea of it being baked into each individual feat. A better approach would be, if you're using feats, require one third of 'feat points' to be spent on each pillar. Or, say, half on combat and half on exploration, for campaigns that are interaction light. Vyvyan Basterd's approach is too inflexible.

It forces other dependencies too. If I want to use the Heavy Armor Warrior feat I now have to use the fatigue system, and the skill system. This seems to be the opposite approach of what 5e is trying to do, which is to reduce dependencies.
 
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Vyvyan Basterd

Adventurer
An optional rule to ensure PCs are capable in all three pillars is desirable, but I don't like the idea of it being baked into each individual feat. A better approach would be, if you're using feats, require one third of 'feat points' to be spent on each pillar. Or, say, half on combat and half on exploration, for campaigns that are interaction light.

That sounds clunky to me.


Vyvyan Basterd's approach is too inflexible.

It forces other dependencies too. If I want to use the Heavy Armor Warrior feat I now have to use the fatigue system, and the skill system. This seems to be the opposite approach of what 5e is trying to do, which is to reduce dependencies.

The dependencies are an issue I tried to raise myself. The benefits should be more open to combat, exploration, and interaction in the core if this idea were fully fleshed out. My example does not have the benefit of knowing what's going to be core and was purely an example.

I don't think it's a bad thing to assume that the three pillars of the game themself are core, though. And for those that feel their game can weaken or eliminate a pillar, and consequently believe this type of feat to be weak, there is still the ability mods.
 

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