Putting Hit Points back into Mutants and Masterminds

What can I say? I've got too many books with weapon stats I don't want to loose.

So I went through and summarized all the conversion guidelines from M&M's Damage Save system back to d20's hit points. I thought I would share.

Hit Point Recap:

Hit points: (Sidebar on page 130)
1d6 per character level + Con bouns, Minions 1d6/2, round down
Stun=subdual
Lethal=hit point damage

Disabled at 0, dying at –1, dead at –10

Recovery: (sidebar)
(for 5th level characters)
5 subdual per minute
5 hit points per day
Medical attention doubles rates

Powers:

A power's damage rating is 1d6 per rank. (sidebar)

Super Strength adds 1d6 per damage per rank. (sidebar)

Absorption: (My house rule -- which M&M's designer approved of!!)
You have a DR rating of Power Rank X 2. You can absorb up to a total of 40 hit points per power rank. Stored hit points bleed off at a rate of 4 hit points per round. With every 4 hit points, you can power a rank for another effect.
(This was figured on the concept that every power rank deals 1d6 damage, so an average of 3.5 rounded up to 4 to be convenient and err on the conservative side.)
Example Absorption at 4 ranks.
DR rating of 8, Absorbs 160 hit points, which can power 40 ranks of effects (the final ratio stays the same.)

Regeneration (sidebar)
Regeneration adds it ranks to the recovery rates and hit points get healed in minutes
Level 5 Regen example
5 +5(Regen) sudual per minute
5+5(Regen) hit points per minute

Healing Power (sidebar)
Healing adds its ranks in hit points
Level 5 Healing Example
+5 hit points back

Protection, Armor, Force Field and other similar powers: (Unoffical Errata from Steve on this fourm)
The power converts to DR of Power Rank X 2.

Penetrating Attack: (My house rule)
Each level of the feat reduces a targets DR by 4.
(since Protection is double, I thought Penetrating Attack should be doubled too.)

Evasion: (My house rule ... but I am taking suggestions)
When a Fortitude Save is requested to avoid damage in a physical situation, a Reflex check can be made to reduce the damage by half.

Super Constitution (sidebar) and Damage Save: (Unoffical Errata)
These powers adds extra hit points of the power’s level multiplied by the Hero’s total levels
Example of a Level 5 hero with a Super Constitution 2
2 X 5 = 10 hit points.

Damaging Objects: (sidebar)
Object's hit points = Hardness X 5 and DR = Hardness X 2. When it is 0 hit points object is broken or or destroyed.

OR (my house rule)
Look up stats of objects in your genre d20 book

Hero Points: (sidebar)
A Hero Point can erase subdual points equal to his power level, i.e. 5th Level hero erases 5 subdual damage points.
A Hero Point can let a PC ignore the status of being Disabled for 1 round with out his condition worsen to dying.

Interesting rules. Look pretty good to me. How much time did that take you to work out ?

I think it is good if you have to use the HP system. I personally have always disliked the HP system because it cannot reflect that instant kill or knockdown.

High levels make most mundane animals come across as nothing but a time waster. Or that one critical sword blow that scratches you at best.

I just wonder why you need to have HP's? Is it that critical to you?

What are your reasons ?

Stryke

Stryke said:

High levels make most mundane animals come across as nothing but a time waster. Or that one critical sword blow that scratches you at best.

I just wonder why you need to have HP's? Is it that critical to you?

Stryke

Click to expand...

That is why my game is Level 5. My main two motivations was that I am converting over a game in progress and I wanted to take baby steps and the other was that I wanted some use from my other d20 book.

Thanks for the compliment. The sidebar covers most of the stuff, Penetrating Attack was easy. Absorption the toughest part it was mostly juggling numbers and the confidence to stick to it. It was a real charge to have Steve Kenson say "That looks about right to me, Voneth."

It probably took longer to write the whole thing up compared to the guess work.

the new mnmtalk group...

I think you should post this and anything else you have done on the new group. I plan on using Hit Points in a game idea I have in mind and I am going to use what you have created and tell everybody that as for the converting of the HP in M&M, your the person!!

Necro post of epic proportions no doubt but still...

[FONT=Courier New, monospace][FONT=Courier New, monospace]I gotta post this as I was inspired by stumbling upon this brilliant old? thread to attempt to create a feat which allows a form of hit dice for a M & M campaign I'm planning while still preserving the pace and feel of comic book style combat. Hopefully it will serve as a means to ease players more used to D20 class based systems into Mutants and Masterminds as well as just being a fun variation. It might also provide a way for players to get some use out of extra ranks in super strength and powers beyond the max damage cap. So here goes. Let me know what you think please.

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]Alternate Hit Points (Morale) System for Mutants and Masterminds[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]

The number of Morale Dice are equal to a character's Power Level and are modified by a character's Constitution bonus per level/Morale Die. Morale Die per level is chosen by player and may be free, purchased, or even earn Power Points.

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]Morale Die[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
1d4 = +1 Power Point
1d6 = 0 Power Points (Free)
1d8 = -1 Power Point
1d10= -2 Power Points
1d12= -3 Power Points

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]Recap:[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
Base Morale Points = 1d4-1d12 + Con bonus per character Power Level, Minions 1d6/2, rounded down per Power Level.

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]Morale Points Feat:[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
Either once per Encounter or day, at the GM's discretion, the Player Character may spend a Hero Point in order to boost his or her morale to the point that it can act to stave off some of the effects normally resulting from taking damage in combat. This amounts to a kind of beserker state that can be used to potentially avoid or delay Stunned, Staggered, Unconscious, and Disabled results but at the added risk of incurring Lethal damage and effects.

Players can switch off this feat at will as a free action provided they have no pending damage points to take in the round and are not Dying. If PC is Disabled due to Morale loss when this feat is discontinued then he or she will be Stunned for 1 round but will be otherwise able to function normally in the next round, except for any Bruised or Staggered or Injured effects accrued. Note that reduction to Morale Points and Subdual damage persists until healed even if the feat has been turned off and can leave a PC vulnerable to a foe with the Morale Points feat.

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]DAMAGE CONDITIONS[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]Bruised[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace] = No change for PC using the Morality Point feat unless Lethal damage is being used, then target suffers damage to Morale determined by the difference between the failed Toughness Saving Throw and the Damage Roll.

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]Stunned[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace] = Characters with the Morale Points feat active cannot normally be Stunned (except by a Power that has a stun effect). Instead treat all Stunned results rolled in the course of normal combat as if Bruised. Additionally target suffers Subdual damage equal to the difference between their foe's Damage Roll (including the DC of 15) and their Toughness Save Roll. Obviously, no Subdual damage is taken if the Toughness Save Roll is greater than the Damage Roll.

If Subdual damage equals Current Morale Points then target is Staggered. Further Subdual damage to character using the Morale Points feat after having been so Staggered results in the target being Injured. Treat all further damage as Lethal and subtract it from the character's Current Morale Points.

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]Staggered = [/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]Supers using the Morale Points feat cannot normally be Staggered (except by a Power with that specific effect) unless they have received Subdual damage equal to their Current Morale Points. Treat Stagger results typically rolled in combat as if Bruised and Stunned (See above).

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]Unconscious[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace] = Characters using the Morale Points feat cannot normally be rendered Unconscious (except by a Power which has that specific effect). Instead they take Lethal damage to their Current Morale Points amounting to the difference between their foe's Damage Roll (including the DC of 15) and their Toughness Save Roll. Obviously, no damage is taken if the Toughness Save Roll is greater than the Damage Roll.

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]Lethal[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace] = Damage to Current Morale Points.

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]Morale[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace] Disabled = [/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]With this feat active PCs can only be Disabled when their Current Morale Points have been reduced to 0 by taking Lethal damage. The Morale Disabled state only applies as long as the PC's Morale Points feat is active unless the PC has been designated as a Morale Target.

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]Morale Dying[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace] = Happens when a character's Morale Points have been reduced to -1. Player Character's that are Morale Dying cannot turn off the Morale Points feat until they have been stabilized and returned to a state of Morale Disabled. A PC stabilized after Morale Dying is only Morale Disabled and not also Unconscious.

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]Morale Death[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace] = Occurs if a PC's Morale Points are reduced to -10 or a Morale Dying character fails to make a required Fortitude Save. PCs suffering Morale Death automatically get a chance to revive themselves once after every passing hour as if with Regeneration (after a day from normal death). PCs with Regeneration can attempt to revive themselves every 10-100 rounds after Morale Death. If further damage or effects that would ordinarily be considered Lethal has been inflicted upon a body after Morale Death takes place then PC is truly dead and can only be revived by standard means, if any.

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]Recovery (Morale Variant):[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]

Heals Power Level number of Subdual damage points from Non-Lethal attacks per minute.

Heals Power Level number of Morale Points from Lethal damage per hour.

Medical attention doubles rates

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]POWERS (MORALE VARIANT):[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]

All Strike and Blast Powers have a Morale damage rating of 1d6 per rank and can exceed the normal Maximum Damage Cap.

Super Strength adds 1d6 Morale damage per rank and has no Maximum Damage Cap.

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]Absorption (Morale Absorption Alternate Power): [/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
Subtract Power rank X 2 from the Damage Bonus of the affected Morale or Subdual damaging attack. If the remaining amount is +0 make a normal Toughness Save against the remaining Damage Bonus--Otherwise ignore the attack's damage completely (damage is Absorbed). Since ranks in Absorption count as a part of your Toughness Save for Power Level purposes this can be a crucial way to counter uncapped Morale and Subdual damage from damaging Powers and Super Strength.

You can absorb up to a total of 40 Morale damage points or 40 Subdual damage points per Power rank (but not both types of damage with the same rank). Physical and Energy can both be absorbed identically as long as they would inflict either Morale or Subdual damage. Stored Morale and Subdual damage can be used as a ratio of 4 to 1 to power effects (Boost or Healing). Stored Morale and Subdual points "bleed off" at a rate of 4 per round. *(This was figured on the concept that every Power rank deals 1d6 Morale damage, so an average of 3.5 rounded up to 4 to be convenient and err on the conservative side.)

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]Example[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]:[/FONT][/FONT]

• [FONT=Courier New, monospace]Absorption at 4 ranks.
  DR rating of 8, Absorbs 160 Morale Points, which can power 40 ranks of effects (the final ratio stays the same).[/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]Regeneration (Morale Regeneration Alternate Power):[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, monospace]Regeneration adds its Power Ranks to the Recovery rates. Subdual damage points get healed in rounds, Lethal Morale damage points in minutes.[/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]Level 5 Regen examples:[/FONT]

• [FONT=Courier New, monospace]5+5(Regen) Subdual damage points reduced per round [/FONT]
• [FONT=Courier New, monospace]5+5(Regen) Lethal damage points reduced per minute[/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]Healing Power (Morale Healing Alternate Power):[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, monospace]Healing reduces Subdual or Morale damage by its rank numbers. [/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, monospace]
Level 5 Healing Example:[/FONT]

• [FONT=Courier New, monospace]+5 Morale Points back [/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]Protection[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace], Armor, Force Field and other similar powers (Morale Variant): [/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, monospace]
The power converts to DR of Power Rank X 2 when applied to Morale or Subdual damag[/FONT]e. [FONT=Courier New, monospace]Protection provided by each Power of this kind is doubled in order to partially counter the massive uncapped amounts of Morale damage that can be done by Player Characters who take advantage of the Morale Points feat.[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, monospace]
Power Rank 5 Force Field Example:[/FONT]

• [FONT=Courier New, monospace]+10 protection from Force Field against Morale or Subdual damage.
  [/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]Penetrating Attack: (Morale Variant):[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
Each level of the feat reduces a target's DR by 4 against Subdual and Morale damage.
(since Protection is double, I thought Penetrating Attack should be doubled too.)

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]Evasion: (Morale Variant): [/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
When a Fortitude Save is possible to avoid Subdual or Morale damage, then an additional Reflex Check can be made to reduce any resulting damage by half.

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]Super Constitution (Morale Variant): [/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
This Power adds extra Morale Points equal to the character's Power Level multiplied by the number of ranks.[/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]Example:[/FONT]

• [FONT=Courier New, monospace]A Level 5 hero with a Super Constitution 2 would get 2 X 5 = 10 additional Morale Points.[/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]Damage Save: Subdual and Lethal Damage to Morale Points are only applied on failed Toughness Save Throws. Damage taken amounts to the difference between the opponent's Damage Roll (DC of 15 + Damage Bonus) and the Toughness Save roll.

Damaging Objects (Morale Variant):
Object's Morale points = Hardness X 5 and DR = Hardness X 2. When it is 0 Morale points object is broken or or destroyed.

OR (House Rule):
Look up stats of objects in your genre d20 book

Hero Points (Morale Variant):[/FONT]

• [FONT=Courier New, monospace]A Hero Point can erase Subdual or Morale damage equal to character's Power Level from self, i.e. 5th Level hero erases 5 Subdual or Morale damage points.[/FONT]

• [FONT=Courier New, monospace]A Hero Point can let a PC ignore the status of being Disabled as a result of Current Morale Points being reduced to 0 for 1 round without his condition worsening to Dying.[/FONT]

• [FONT=Courier New, monospace]A Hero Point can allow a Player with the Morale Points feat active to designate one object or opponent as a Morale Target and attack that person's or thing's Morale Points with Lethal damage instead of the regular combat mode. Targets without the Morale Point feat and/or who haven't chosen any Morale Die are treated as if they had 1d6+ Con bonus per Power Level of Morale (Minions 1d6/2 rounded down per Power Level). Morale Targets get to spend Hero Points as if they had the Morale Points feat active even if they don't. Note that this can allow Lethal damage in excess of the usual Maximum Damage Cap so should be used wisely.[/FONT]

I personally prefer the HP system for d20 games. I'd like M&M to use it more than the damage saving throw myself. I've never really cared for that aspect of the game.

I played M&M several times a few years ago and fell in love with it... until I played it. The game and rules are great, but I found combat to be broken. It seemed like combat resulted in several combatants getting stunned and then staying stunned until down. We didn't like it, so we tinkered with it, but we weren't familiar enough with the game to get it right.

so we tried the hit point optional rules, and that didn't seem to work either. If I remember you got 1d6 + something hp per level, but each attack did 1d6 x power rank per hit, so people died almost instantly.

Now like I said, this was years ago so my memory isn't perfect, and like I said, we weren't really familiar with the game, so we didn't really know what we were doing. I would like to get back into the game, and these rules seem like they can make that possible... but do they work? Have you tested them? Was I just not getting it those years ago and this game was never broken to begin with?

I've toyed with the idea of doing away with the M&M damage save altogether for my campaign but after having played with it a little and seen how hero points can work with it to help keep the combat dynamic It occured to me that it might be fun to try to have the best of both worlds instead.

This is completely untested by me but I don't see why it wouldn't work and even one of the game developers seemed to think so according to the genius OP.

invokethehojo said:

I played M&M several times a few years ago and fell in love with it... until I played it. The game and rules are great, but I found combat to be broken. It seemed like combat resulted in several combatants getting stunned and then staying stunned until down. We didn't like it, so we tinkered with it, but we weren't familiar enough with the game to get it right.

so we tried the hit point optional rules, and that didn't seem to work either. If I remember you got 1d6 + something hp per level, but each attack did 1d6 x power rank per hit, so people died almost instantly.

Now like I said, this was years ago so my memory isn't perfect, and like I said, we weren't really familiar with the game, so we didn't really know what we were doing. I would like to get back into the game, and these rules seem like they can make that possible... but do they work? Have you tested them? Was I just not getting it those years ago and this game was never broken to begin with?

Click to expand...

A lot depends on being able to use Hero Points actively. The system works with or without hit points if you have a GM who dispenses them and the GM Fiat or Villain Points liberally enough and players who use them freely yet wisely. I just thought this would be a fun alternative and maybe easier for people used to a system with classes to get their minds around.

Here's a couple of links that can demonstrate a good example of a combat encounter using M & M.

http://hyborian.free.fr/mutantsmasterminds/Elric/sample_fight.pdf

http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=406527#p406527

An instant fix for stun lock would be to say that a character or villian can not be stunned while stunned. That's what I do in my games.

However, as for HP systems for M&M I believe there's a pretty good one over in The atomic think thank and I know @WalkingDad was working on one.