iPhone email (also diplomacy between experts and laymen)

Janx

Hero
It's just disconcerting to face incredulity from techs and "geniuses" [Apple store] when asking about this. I thought something "broke" and they thought I was insane.

Bullgrit

Sounds like an idea for a new thread. How is someone supposed to react when confronted with news that they're way is "wrong." How is someone supposed to break the news to somebody that they've been doing it "wrong" (besides avoiding using the word wrong).

While it'd be great to avoid faux pas and stuff, one usually finds you're already seven inches into the crazy before you realize it.

So by the time someone realizes you were getting extra special behavior from TWC, they've already spent 30 minutes arguing best practices for email connectivity is with IMAP and are thinking "this guy is crazy"

Not that Bullgrit is crazy, but when folks come in with a sideways problem that they insist they're way is working, except for the fact that it isn't working which is why they're having a problem, it can be really tricky to handle that diplomatically.

Hypothetically, Apple Store people are trained to talk a certain way. So they might avoid danger words like "wrong."

Another variable to the mix is that 10% of the population really is crazy. And they use technology. And they try to do things with it that don't make sense, or try to find ways to abuse or game the system (like opening and managing 200+ email accounts so they can game a rewards system at an online store).

While it's not the best form of diplomacy, the Doctor model works pretty well. Doctors are smart. Doctors are educated. When the doctor says X is your problem and Y is your cure, you don't argue with the doctor. This model fails when you don't trust your doctor, or your doctor is a jerk (which pretty much leads to lack of trust).

The same is true for your trusted nerd. She spent years doing family tech support, working in IT tech support, moving up the chain and learning from the Tech School of Hard Knocks. If she tells you to configure your iTunes Library a certain way, do it.

There are mysteries in life that mortal man wasn't meant to know. If the wise Sage says to eat the funny herbs, don't argue. Just do it. The guy learned a whole lot of things that you ain't got time for, to know what the right answer is.

PS. If the funny herbs make you sick, find a new Sage.
 

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Bullgrit

Adventurer
Janx said:
Sounds like an idea for a new thread. How is someone supposed to react when confronted with news that they're way is "wrong." How is someone supposed to break the news to somebody that they've been doing it "wrong" (besides avoiding using the word wrong).
This is a good idea for discussion. I'm going to carry it on here, with the spirit of discussion. It may sound like I'm "defending" myself here, but really, I'm beyond that now. But there is a side of my particular story that does make the discussion more interesting. A twist.

For instance, I was not doing it "wrong." I had not set up my email to work the way it did. That is just the way it worked -- and the TWC and totalbullgrit email still work that way without any changes by me. I hadn't asked for that method, I just accepted it and got used to it. And it wasn't wrong. It might have been outdated and inefficient, but it was no more wrong than dialing a friend's phone number from memory rather than from the speed dial. There's more than a diplomatic issue to telling someone they're doing something wrong. Different is not necessarily wrong.

What was making me feel insane is that I was being told "email doesn't work that way" when I have two accounts that definitely *do* work that way, naturally. It wasn't until this thread that I learned the difference between POP and IMAP.

[By the way: I looked up and found the AT&T POP settings. I set up my iPhone to use the AT&T POP settings, but it still does the same thing as the IMAP settings. <shrug>]

While it's not the best form of diplomacy, the Doctor model works pretty well. Doctors are smart. Doctors are educated. When the doctor says X is your problem and Y is your cure, you don't argue with the doctor. This model fails when you don't trust your doctor, or your doctor is a jerk (which pretty much leads to lack of trust).
When I was a teenager, I was in a moderate car accident. My only injury was a bump on my head. (The car was totaled.) When I went to the emergency room and had the doctor examine my head, he found a bump at the base of the back of my skull. He said it shouldn't be a problem, just put ice on it and my parents should monitor me for a day. I pointed out that he hadn't touched my injury, and that bump he touched had always been there. "Well if that's always been there, there's more wrong than we thought," he laughed and moved on. That bump he touched is still there to this day. The actual injury, that he didn't find or touch, we did put ice on and monitored, and it went away.

I felt that day pretty much how I felt this time. An expert told me something that my experience said was untrue, or inaccurate. In both cases, immediately after the encounter with the expert, I proved my experience/knowledge was accurate. Although the difference between my two anecdotes is that at least the doctor told me what to do to fix the injury. The AT&T/Apple folks told me there was nothing that could be done, basically because my "problem" wasn't a problem. Like if the doc did touch my actual injury and just said, "Oh, that bump and pain is normal."

Bullgrit
 

Radiating Gnome

Adventurer
I felt that day pretty much how I felt this time. An expert told me something that my experience said was untrue, or inaccurate. In both cases, immediately after the encounter with the expert, I proved my experience/knowledge was accurate. Although the difference between my two anecdotes is that at least the doctor told me what to do to fix the injury. The AT&T/Apple folks told me there was nothing that could be done, basically because my "problem" wasn't a problem. Like if the doc did touch my actual injury and just said, "Oh, that bump and pain is normal."

I think this is a challenge that most "experts" face, and some work hard to be aware of and work on -- the lack of real listening skills or effort. It becomes very easy -- especially when you're pressed for time -- to short circuit conversations with people who need help -- to not listen to them fully, and give them a quick and easy diagnosis and solution and move on.

Actually, in cases like the ER doctor, that sort of behavior is a necessity. That doctor needed to be able to move on to the next patient -- giving you a quick answer was what made the most sense for him.

It's why a consumer -- a patient or whatever -- needs to be an advocate for themselves -- especially for important issues. It's why, when it's really important and the answers you're getting don't make sense to you -- why you need to do more than just accept that the expert is right because he said so and go back out and seek second and third opinions. Maybe that first expert was just moving too fast to listen. Or maybe he didn't explain the solution in a way you're wired to understand, and someone else will have a better way of explaining the same answer.

My wife has Rheumatoid Arthritis -- it's a chronic condition she was diagnosed with very young, and it's going to be more and more challenging as we get older. She's been on a variety medications, has had both knees replaced so far (unusual for a woman in her early 40s). She goes to the area's leading expert on RA, and by and large that doctor is very good, and yet there are constant reasons to test and questions and confirm things we hear from her doctor. For her knee surgeries, we had two different doctors (both working in the same clinic) and had very different experiences, despite the similar levels of expertise. And, if you were in town and looking to get a knee replaced, we'd have some pretty strong advice to give you about which of the two surgeons to go to.

All of that is just a longwinded, TMI way of saying that I don't agree with the idea that one should just accept what an expert is telling you -- ANY expert. On more than one occasion we've had to push our "expert" doctor when we find her suggesting options that are more convenient for her and her office, and that are not the thing that my wife needs most (best example -- delaying a necessary change in medication a few months until the new year because of the duplicate paperwork that will be required if we made the change immediately).

Experts are important -- vital and valuable. But the minute they start saying "trust me, I'm the expert" I know it's time to start looking for other sources of information & insight.

-rg
 

Janx

Hero
I think this is a challenge that most "experts" face, and some work hard to be aware of and work on -- the lack of real listening skills or effort. It becomes very easy -- especially when you're pressed for time -- to short circuit conversations with people who need help -- to not listen to them fully, and give them a quick and easy diagnosis and solution and move on.

Actually, in cases like the ER doctor, that sort of behavior is a necessity. That doctor needed to be able to move on to the next patient -- giving you a quick answer was what made the most sense for him.

It's why a consumer -- a patient or whatever -- needs to be an advocate for themselves -- especially for important issues. It's why, when it's really important and the answers you're getting don't make sense to you -- why you need to do more than just accept that the expert is right because he said so and go back out and seek second and third opinions. Maybe that first expert was just moving too fast to listen. Or maybe he didn't explain the solution in a way you're wired to understand, and someone else will have a better way of explaining the same answer.
...snip...wind removal...snip...
All of that is just a longwinded, TMI way of saying that I don't agree with the idea that one should just accept what an expert is telling you -- ANY expert. On more than one occasion we've had to push our "expert" doctor when we find her suggesting options that are more convenient for her and her office, and that are not the thing that my wife needs most (best example -- delaying a necessary change in medication a few months until the new year because of the duplicate paperwork that will be required if we made the change immediately).

Experts are important -- vital and valuable. But the minute they start saying "trust me, I'm the expert" I know it's time to start looking for other sources of information & insight.

-rg

I'll play the opposing side. Remember, I am not a professional arguer, so my delivery may suck...

As somebody who has Knowledge that other people don't, but need, I've had to help a lot of people. What I see is that a lot of people are stupid, ignorant or inept, and usually those traits are in combination. They are also predictable. They all have the same problem, as some dead guy said, there's only so many things under the sun, and after the first 10 years, you've probably seen most of the cases.

The key to that alleged superiorty of Expertness is experience. I've been doing working with technology for 30 years. Not just setting the VCR, but programming computers, fixing them, actual very technical stuff. As with any of these kind of technical threads, folks like me will throw out their resume to justify why you should listen to them over somebody else. It's trite, and probably a bad habit.

However, when an Apple store employee tells you to do something, what's his credibility? He's probably an early 20 something. Maybe still in school. Like other stores with their "you can trust our experts" theme, how smart are these guys? Consider that in a large city like mine, there's probably a tech company or heavy IT shop in town. If the kid was REALLY good, he'd be making $20+ in support, or $60-$120K in the upper IT, development or engineering branches. I worked at a very large technology manufacturer. If you were good, you'd be there, not slinging cell phones at the Best Buy down the street.

Given how complicated it is what I do, and what doctors do, I do not expect the average human being to be qualified to judge my advice or a doctor's advice. Who are you to second guess a diagnosis? How would you REALLY know if it was wrong or right? If I didn't go to med school, I'm not going to argue whether I have some medical condition or not. I am not qualified to know, and for the most part nobody else is either.

So, how does that relate to the doctor's crappy bedside manner and whether or not you can trust an expert?

The key clues to BG and RG's stories are not in the technical solution presented by the doctor or the Nerd. It's poor rapport and listening. If your concern didn't get addressed (stop looking at the wrong bump!), then you have reason to not trust the assessment, because you can't be sure the expert addressed the correct matter.

The difference is subtle. If I did my job right, I listened to you and came up with a solution that will work, or explained why you can't be cured. And you should trust me because I did that right. If I rushed through and didn't actually talk about the problem you came with, then your beef with me is over that, not my actual solution because for all purposes I haven't delivered a solution to the problem you came to me with, I threw out a solution to the problem I thought you had.

Ideally, you trust me because I took the time to understand your actual problem, and not rush through it. If I come to a conclusion and don't test that my conclusion matches what you think your situation is, then I am failing to listen, and losing points on the Trustometer.

I think for folks like me, the trap is that we do see a lot of repetitious problems. People make the same mistakes, and the solution becomes rote. Personal email screwed up, switch to gmail, set it to IMAP. Set gmail to pop-move your mail from your old account so nobody has to know you changed addresses.

For practical purposes, this is an excellent solution. It almost always works, and it is almost always trouble-free.

But the act of handing out the generic advice (or being surprised by resistance or a unique situation) throws everything off kilter.

I think BG's scenario would have been different if he was one of my real world friends. He'd tell me over dinner about his trouble, I'd remember how he likes to seperate his email flow, and we'd talk through the options. I'd explain clouds and POP vs. IMAP. By the end of the conversation, he'd feel more comfortable switching to IMAP, even though he'd lose some of what he had before.

That kind of thing works, because BG would know me personally. He'd know what I do for a living and that I was the smartest computer person he knew. I wouldn't have to brag about it or try to puff up my qualifications. Part of the Expert trust equation is solved, and the other part would be the act of me communicating with him, instead of dumping an answer on him.

This is where the internet kind of fails. In the real world, it's easier to be that kind of Expert to my friends, than it is on the internet to strangers. There's more push and pull of information in a verbal conversation about a problem, than an internet post.

Thus, in a world of Experts and Absolute Answers (because many of us come from a "this is the policy we follow" doctrine), a question about "I just got my new SmartPhone, how do I set up email?" is easier to answer with the standard response. Bullgrit's fuzzier problem requires more interaction than we can apparently muster on the internet.

I said Absolute Answers, because while we all realize there can be multiple solutions to a problem, as a matter of standardization, the same problem must be resolved the same way. So once an Expert learns the solution, they must apply that solution every time. This is why electricians follow wiring standards. You don't want to come back to a problem and ponder "what did I do last time I was here". Especially to situations that really are the same, or can be MADE to be the same. It is the mark of Amateur Hour when we see somebody's work, and we see inconsistencies everywhere.


Anyway, that's a wall of text, but it is likely some of the mindset of Expert-type people. Except for the Experts who disagree. because I've given a stereotype response, and people do vary.
 

Bullgrit

Adventurer
Janx said:
I think BG's scenario would have been different if he was one of my real world friends.
You're making it sound like you think you didn't help me. You did help me. It was here that I learned about the difference between POP and IMAP, and that explained why my email was working differently than it used to. None of the "official experts" told me about this. This thread was more helpful to me in figuring out what was going on than the official channels.

Just saying this so you don't sell yourself short. Thanks.

Bullgrit
 

Radiating Gnome

Adventurer
As somebody who has Knowledge that other people don't, but need, I've had to help a lot of people. What I see is that a lot of people are stupid, ignorant or inept, and usually those traits are in combination.

I think we're mostly saying the same thing -- communication skills -- listening and communication your solution -- can be lacking, especially when it's necessary as a survival instinct for the expert in question.

I also made a case for the recipient being an advocate for themselves, which is hard to support if those folks are mostly "stupid, ignorant, or inept".

Who are you to second guess a diagnosis?

Nobody, except the person who has to live with the consequences.

Experience and Expertise provides a whole lot of authority in a conversation about how to deal with a problem. They entitle a person to better salaries and a free meal from friends who need the expert's help.

All I'm trying to say is that, the more important it is to you and the way you go about your day, the more you need to be an advocate for your own needs, even if you aren't the expert. I think BG is doing exactly what he should be -- seeking other opinions and ideas until he feels like he has an understanding of the situation.

And I'm not saying anyone else is doing the wrong thing, either -- hell, odds are the people you deal with every day ARE stupid, ignorant, or inept. Sorry for that (hope I'm not all three).

But the higher the stakes, the more those stupid, ignorant, inept folks need to buckle down and get some understanding on their own, so that even when the expert gives them options, they can make a decision they can live with.

Obviously there's a little scale difference between cancer treatment and configuring email clients, but in BG's case, I think he expressed very well why his old system worked for him, and why he liked it.

It's important to him -- probably more important than a lot of other, more trivial decisions he might trust to experts without giving them a second thought. Like, when the experts say "don't watch Once upon a Time", we don't question that advice. So what I think he's getting out of the conversation in this thread (except for this hijack we're indulging in) is the higher level of understanding that he needed to accept the newer solutions.

So, yay!

-rg
 

Janx

Hero
You're making it sound like you think you didn't help me. You did help me. It was here that I learned about the difference between POP and IMAP, and that explained why my email was working differently than it used to. None of the "official experts" told me about this. This thread was more helpful to me in figuring out what was going on than the official channels.

Just saying this so you don't sell yourself short. Thanks.

Bullgrit

I am glad I helped. I just feel like you'd get better service from me in person than I may appear online.

And on that concept is where I base the "Do what the Expert says" argument.

If I am Knowledgeable, and I did listen to your concerns, and I did outline what part of your problem I can't solve and what part of your problem my solution will solve and help you understand it enough, then I have done my job as a Expert.

In which case, don't argue with the Expert, do what he says.

A good chunk of people (the ones who aren't crazy, stupid, inept and ignorant) will generally do what they're told by an authority figure (ex. expert).

It's the ones who don't like the answer, don't listen, can't comprehend who cause thrash in the system and chap a man's grits.

I sense a growing trend in this "be your own advocate" pattern. basically, your doctor is an idiot, who hasn't kept up on the latest medical knowledge, and thus you should go get 3 recommendations. Further, doctors don't tell you what to to do anymore, they give you choices. The drug commercial industry is pushing that agenda. Patients don't need to know what drugs are or what they do. Doctors do. I should not need to ask my doctor if Humira is right for me. he should already know that when he looks at my chart.

I'm an engineer. When I pay a man $100/hour, I expect an answer that I can follow the instructions. If the doctor gets all wishy washy with "well, you could do this, or could do that..." he ain't earning his pay as an expert.

There's already science (and a TED talk) that shows that Choices are not a good thing. We don't want or need lots of choices.

When someone engages me as an Expert in their problem, I put in the time to learn about their situation and think about it and give them the best solution I can. Depending on the situation (sometimes an advice request is to collect recommendations), I expect the person to follow my advice. Because otherwise, they have wasted my time.

One might argue that I got paid for my time, why does it matter? If I am doing my job right, I am invested in your problem such that I truly care that it gets resolved. If you don't use my solution, that usually means the problem doesn't get solved. Or you gave the implementation business to somebody else. There's a lot of "free" work that goes into prepping a solution proposal based on the expectation to recoup the expense on winning the contract. Not getting the job means wasted time that could have been spent elsewhere.
 

Bullgrit

Adventurer
If all experts were always absolutely correct in everything they say about their area of expertise, you'd be right. But "expert" is a very difficult label. Even doctors are not perfect.

I sense a growing trend in this "be your own advocate" pattern. basically, your doctor is an idiot, who hasn't kept up on the latest medical knowledge, and thus you should go get 3 recommendations.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?345802-iPhone-email/page2#ixzz2hPnncyaj
There is a wide area of space between "your doctor is an idiot" and "no doctor is perfect".

It'll probably chap some grits to say: I'm not going IMAP because experts have told me it's the "right" or best way to go, I'm accepting IMAP because it's my only option. I still prefer how my email worked with POP, but it's not an option for me now, apparently. This thread didn't so much convince me that IMAP is better *for me/my purposes*, as it explained why I was seeing a different functionality with my new email.

Bullgrit
 


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